4 ms·

because they really produce lots of cars every year, they do have facilities to produce as many cars as you want and their respective revenues are 130B and 150B

because they really produce lots of cars every year, they do have facilities to produce as many cars as you want and their respective revenues are 130B and 150B, +Boeing 75B.

DarmokJalad1701 6y ago
Producing ICE cars isn't the same as making EVs. A good example of this is Tesla's Fremont factory (which used to be a GM/Toyota facility) and their Shanghai Gigafactory. The layout of the Fremont one contributed to significant inefficiencies in manufacturing compared to GF3 which was built from scratch for EVs. Buying Ford and GM would also mean taking on the baggage of hundreds of billions in debt, pension obligations, employees with minimal experience in building batteries/drivetrains/EVs, a dealership network that doesn't want to sell EVs and the old guard that has no desire to innovate. Tesla uses manufacturing methods no other OEM does (e.g. Giga-press casting machine for Model Y/3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giga_Press https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giga_Press). The facilities they are currently building are massive compared to Ford/GM's factories. They vertically integrate, soon going all the way down to cell manufacturing/lithium mining. Buying an incumbent OEM would end up a burden.
- tuyguntn 6y ago
  EVs are not something only some companies or people can do, they can be replicated by any car company at this moment, look EU companies, Renault and Volkswagen are already in top by selling electric cars across Europe. Also GM is working on EVs, their Electric Hummer maybe released soon as well
  - DarmokJalad1701 6y ago
    soon™ They have been saying that for years now. The electric Hummer will have its niche buyers. But in terms of specs, it is very lacking compared to Tesla's offerings. Tesla has figured out how to manufacture EVs at scale with a ~20%+ gross margin. This will only go up as their numbers go up and they start producing their own 4680 cells. No other auto-maker has even tried to come up with their own cell chemistry. They still rely on suppliers like LG-Chem. Most automakers make single digit margins on ICE cars and lose money on EVs. At this point, OEMs like GM and Ford are too far behind IMO. VW is probably the closest to Tesla right now. Their CEO recently said they are probably years behind. https://www.teslarati.com/volkswagen-tesla-10-year-headstart/ https://www.teslarati.com/volkswagen-tesla-10-year-headstart... https://www.barrons.com/articles/tesla-has-a-giant-fan-germanys-vw-51595601718 https://www.barrons.com/articles/tesla-has-a-giant-fan-germa... https://electrek.co/2020/02/17/tesla-teardown-6-years-lead-over-toyota-vw/ https://electrek.co/2020/02/17/tesla-teardown-6-years-lead-o... https://insideevs.com/news/454957/volkswagen-group-ceo-tesla-future-race-advantages/ https://insideevs.com/news/454957/volkswagen-group-ceo-tesla... https://electrek.co/2020/03/02/vw-chief-adjusts-goal-from-overtaking-tesla-to-keep-as-close-as-possible/ https://electrek.co/2020/03/02/vw-chief-adjusts-goal-from-ov...
    - bildung 6y ago
      No, right now. Tesla isn't even in the top 5 of EV cars sold in Germany anymore. Edit: Renault already reported gross margin profitability of its EV models in 2017: https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/renault-macht-rekordgewinn-carlos-ghosn-in-der-form-seines-lebens/19376200.html https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/renault-m... (German source)
      - DarmokJalad1701 6y ago
        > Tesla isn't even in the top 5 of EV cars sold in Germany anymore. Are you sure? Model 3 is the #3 best-selling in 2020 so far. https://cleantechnica.com/2020/12/03/german-ev-market-rockets-above-20-share-in-november/ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/12/03/german-ev-market-rocket... Tesla sends its cars to Germany by ship right now (previously from US, now from China). It arrives once a quarter resulting in lumpy numbers. Once their Berlin gigafactory is operational next year, the numbers will climb significantly and costs will decline. They might also release a EU-only model, possibly a hatchback, built in Berlin.
        bildung 6y ago
        You are right, I was mistaken because of the table in this link: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/verkehr/elektroauto-neuzulassungen-deutschland-oktober-gesamtjahr-2020/ https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/verkehr/elektroauto-neuz... The downtrend for Tesla is clear though, if you compare the quarterly sales. I doubt the Tesla factory in Brandenburg will change that. Tesla would have to release a new, smaller model for the European market. Now that buyers have a choice, they apparently choose the smaller, cheaper models available.
- tuyguntn 6y ago
  only advantage of Tesla at this moment, I think their Level 2 driver assistance.
  - mohaine 6y ago
    Of course they have no advantage in batteries, controllers, brand recognition, or efficiency, this is why their stock is only so so.
  - speedgoose 6y ago
    Disagree, it's crap with all the phantom breaking. I rather drive a car equipped with Mobileye. I think Tesla are good cars and the model 3 has a good value in its price range and provides the best package overall. The network is also a big advantage in some countries.
    - intotheabyss 6y ago
      Why not support the android of driving assist, openpilot. It's nearly as good as Tesla's software, and it has a driver facing camera for behavior monitoring, which for whatever reason Tesla doesn't have.
- hef19898 6y ago
  There is a reason why Toyota closed the Fremont plant in the first place.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

because they really produce lots of cars every year, they do have facilities to produce as many cars as you want and their respective revenues are 130B and 150B, +Boeing 75B.

DarmokJalad1701 6y ago

Producing ICE cars isn't the same as making EVs. A good example of this is Tesla's Fremont factory (which used to be a GM/Toyota facility) and their Shanghai Gigafactory. The layout of the Fremont one contributed to significant inefficiencies in manufacturing compared to GF3 which was built from scratch for EVs. Buying Ford and GM would also mean taking on the baggage of hundreds of billions in debt, pension obligations, employees with minimal experience in building batteries/drivetrains/EVs, a dealership network that doesn't want to sell EVs and the old guard that has no desire to innovate. Tesla uses manufacturing methods no other OEM does (e.g. Giga-press casting machine for Model Y/3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giga_Press https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giga_Press). The facilities they are currently building are massive compared to Ford/GM's factories. They vertically integrate, soon going all the way down to cell manufacturing/lithium mining. Buying an incumbent OEM would end up a burden.

tuyguntn 6y ago
EVs are not something only some companies or people can do, they can be replicated by any car company at this moment, look EU companies, Renault and Volkswagen are already in top by selling electric cars across Europe. Also GM is working on EVs, their Electric Hummer maybe released soon as well
- DarmokJalad1701 6y ago
  soon™ They have been saying that for years now. The electric Hummer will have its niche buyers. But in terms of specs, it is very lacking compared to Tesla's offerings. Tesla has figured out how to manufacture EVs at scale with a ~20%+ gross margin. This will only go up as their numbers go up and they start producing their own 4680 cells. No other auto-maker has even tried to come up with their own cell chemistry. They still rely on suppliers like LG-Chem. Most automakers make single digit margins on ICE cars and lose money on EVs. At this point, OEMs like GM and Ford are too far behind IMO. VW is probably the closest to Tesla right now. Their CEO recently said they are probably years behind. https://www.teslarati.com/volkswagen-tesla-10-year-headstart/ https://www.teslarati.com/volkswagen-tesla-10-year-headstart... https://www.barrons.com/articles/tesla-has-a-giant-fan-germanys-vw-51595601718 https://www.barrons.com/articles/tesla-has-a-giant-fan-germa... https://electrek.co/2020/02/17/tesla-teardown-6-years-lead-over-toyota-vw/ https://electrek.co/2020/02/17/tesla-teardown-6-years-lead-o... https://insideevs.com/news/454957/volkswagen-group-ceo-tesla-future-race-advantages/ https://insideevs.com/news/454957/volkswagen-group-ceo-tesla... https://electrek.co/2020/03/02/vw-chief-adjusts-goal-from-overtaking-tesla-to-keep-as-close-as-possible/ https://electrek.co/2020/03/02/vw-chief-adjusts-goal-from-ov...
  - bildung 6y ago
    No, right now. Tesla isn't even in the top 5 of EV cars sold in Germany anymore. Edit: Renault already reported gross margin profitability of its EV models in 2017: https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/renault-macht-rekordgewinn-carlos-ghosn-in-der-form-seines-lebens/19376200.html https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/renault-m... (German source)
    - DarmokJalad1701 6y ago
      > Tesla isn't even in the top 5 of EV cars sold in Germany anymore. Are you sure? Model 3 is the #3 best-selling in 2020 so far. https://cleantechnica.com/2020/12/03/german-ev-market-rockets-above-20-share-in-november/ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/12/03/german-ev-market-rocket... Tesla sends its cars to Germany by ship right now (previously from US, now from China). It arrives once a quarter resulting in lumpy numbers. Once their Berlin gigafactory is operational next year, the numbers will climb significantly and costs will decline. They might also release a EU-only model, possibly a hatchback, built in Berlin.
      - bildung 6y ago
        You are right, I was mistaken because of the table in this link: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/verkehr/elektroauto-neuzulassungen-deutschland-oktober-gesamtjahr-2020/ https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/verkehr/elektroauto-neuz... The downtrend for Tesla is clear though, if you compare the quarterly sales. I doubt the Tesla factory in Brandenburg will change that. Tesla would have to release a new, smaller model for the European market. Now that buyers have a choice, they apparently choose the smaller, cheaper models available.
tuyguntn 6y ago
only advantage of Tesla at this moment, I think their Level 2 driver assistance.
- mohaine 6y ago
  Of course they have no advantage in batteries, controllers, brand recognition, or efficiency, this is why their stock is only so so.
- speedgoose 6y ago
  Disagree, it's crap with all the phantom breaking. I rather drive a car equipped with Mobileye. I think Tesla are good cars and the model 3 has a good value in its price range and provides the best package overall. The network is also a big advantage in some countries.
  - intotheabyss 6y ago
    Why not support the android of driving assist, openpilot. It's nearly as good as Tesla's software, and it has a driver facing camera for behavior monitoring, which for whatever reason Tesla doesn't have.
hef19898 6y ago
There is a reason why Toyota closed the Fremont plant in the first place.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]