4 ms·

I have to agree with this assessment. The opinion provided by /u/Shacklz is unfortunately rather widespread in Switzerland and mostly based on some outdated vie

by folli 6y ago

I have to agree with this assessment. The opinion provided by /u/Shacklz is unfortunately rather widespread in Switzerland and mostly based on some outdated views on the role of the army ("plausible during the height of the cold war"). As Switzerland's strategic reserve, the army has a broad array of tasks, ranging from support in low threat levels (current example: preparing for the storage and distribution of Covid vaccines), supporting the police (example: World Economic Forum) to high threat levels (where tanks and artillery are needed, so this is also being trained for). In the end, the Swiss Army is the Swiss Army knife for Switzerland's national security. Articles like this one that talk about defunct bunkers that were built for a very specific cold war scenario (but again: are now decommissioned) naturally don't really help. Furthermore, the 'bottomless barrel' also completely misses the mark, as Switzerland's military expenditure is very low (around 0.7% of the GDP, NATO benchmark is around 2% for comparison).

rscho 6y ago
The recent vote to buy expensive planes confirms many swiss and myself included in the opinion that efficient defense capabilities clearly is not the national focus. There were two main points in support of planes: - policing the skies - radar tech As for policing, I'm quite sure many swiss would prefer to have 2-3 high-speed unarmed exploratory planes instead. Wanna shoot down the offender? Just a single missile base in the center of the country would do the trick more efficienty and for cheap. As for radar tech, we could most certainly have a better and cheaper solution adapted to our country by just asking for it at ETHZ or EPFL. We are not Russia or the USA. Our country is minuscule. Just remembering the recent scandals with the israeli drones and the useless command software that cost tens of millions while we have degrading education, postal and healthcare systems makes me furious. And I'm far from the only one. Fuck the army.
- ARandomerDude 6y ago
  > Just a single missile base What could go wrong?
  - rscho 6y ago
    Even 10 missile bases would still be cheaper than the planes we bought. Now what could go wrong with limitless military spending, you might ask? Easy: it's called "the USA". I've been there, and I don't want to go back.
    - greatpatton 6y ago
      Missile bases are just sitting ducks that are waiting to be destroyed before the real attack... Look at the Karabach, The nice S300 anti-airplane system was obliterated at the start of the war with cheap drones. (even the anti-drones systems were destroyed by drones)
      - rscho 6y ago
        In opposition to our 25 fighter planes piloted and commanded by greenhorns who have never seen a real conflict. Those will make quick work of the invader. This is laughable. Swiss armed forces have their justification in policing or counterterrorism. Not defense against actual whole armies. I'd rather have good hospitals and schools, thank you very much.
      - YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
        Can I ask, what country is expected to invade Switzerland?
      - baybal2 6y ago
        > Missile bases are just sitting ducks that are waiting to be destroyed before the real attack... And so are your airbases, and aircrafts on "blind" patrol to low observable, ground hugging targets.
Shacklz 6y ago
> mostly based on some outdated views on the role of the army And this is where we differ - I think _your_ opinion is outdated ;) The services that you listed mostly do not require an "army", what exactly is camouflage gear & combat training good for with regards to helping with covid-related tasks (or any other "Katastrophenhilfe"-related endeavour)? The "Swiss army knife" metaphor is exactly what I so despise about the Swiss army; it's their excuse for essentially being an eternal "Pfadilager" for adults. Actual participation in conflicts mentioned by GP aren't an option anyway thanks to Switzerland's neutrality. Luckily, it seems the trend is clearly in my opinion's favor, as was evident once again with the results of the last referendum on fighter jets - the pro-army-folks are a dying breed, it is just a matter of time until the 'Wehrpflicht' is finally abolished (I estimate it takes another ~20 years or so until the cold war era generation starts to become a minority), and when that happens, it's just a matter of time until the rest of the army gets to boot too, as all the nostalgia-driven sentiments towards it will not exist anymore (currently, put 10 Swiss men in a room, and it will take at most half an hour until their army experience becomes a topic). And you know what? It'll be for the better of the world, and Switzerland especially. Finally, we will be able to say "We do not participate in this barbarian head smashing anymore, we're civilized folks"; someone needs to make the start and Switzerland is in the best position to do so. We're already not participating anyway; but we're still training generation after generation to do so; and this needs to stop eventually. My hope is that this will be the case in the next 20-30 years or so, I wouldn't mind if it was earlier ;)
- themaninthedark 6y ago
  Si vis pacem, para bellum. "If you want peace, prepare for war" I am not Swiss so my opinion might not matter to you but I would say that there are many skills that are taught with military service that help out in other circumstances. Organization, mindfulness and the ability to give and receive orders. >currently, put 10 Swiss men in a room, and it will take at >most half an hour until their army experience becomes a >topic What is wrong with having something that is common across generations and backgrounds that allows people to connect with each other? In my opinion we should train people to have many skills or better put: >A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an >invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, >write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, >comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act >alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch >manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight >efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. > >-Robert A. Heinlein

by folli 6y ago

rscho 6y ago

The recent vote to buy expensive planes confirms many swiss and myself included in the opinion that efficient defense capabilities clearly is not the national focus. There were two main points in support of planes: - policing the skies - radar tech As for policing, I'm quite sure many swiss would prefer to have 2-3 high-speed unarmed exploratory planes instead. Wanna shoot down the offender? Just a single missile base in the center of the country would do the trick more efficienty and for cheap. As for radar tech, we could most certainly have a better and cheaper solution adapted to our country by just asking for it at ETHZ or EPFL. We are not Russia or the USA. Our country is minuscule. Just remembering the recent scandals with the israeli drones and the useless command software that cost tens of millions while we have degrading education, postal and healthcare systems makes me furious. And I'm far from the only one. Fuck the army.

ARandomerDude 6y ago
> Just a single missile base What could go wrong?
- rscho 6y ago
  Even 10 missile bases would still be cheaper than the planes we bought. Now what could go wrong with limitless military spending, you might ask? Easy: it's called "the USA". I've been there, and I don't want to go back.
  - greatpatton 6y ago
    Missile bases are just sitting ducks that are waiting to be destroyed before the real attack... Look at the Karabach, The nice S300 anti-airplane system was obliterated at the start of the war with cheap drones. (even the anti-drones systems were destroyed by drones)
    - rscho 6y ago
      In opposition to our 25 fighter planes piloted and commanded by greenhorns who have never seen a real conflict. Those will make quick work of the invader. This is laughable. Swiss armed forces have their justification in policing or counterterrorism. Not defense against actual whole armies. I'd rather have good hospitals and schools, thank you very much.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
      Can I ask, what country is expected to invade Switzerland?
    - baybal2 6y ago
      > Missile bases are just sitting ducks that are waiting to be destroyed before the real attack... And so are your airbases, and aircrafts on "blind" patrol to low observable, ground hugging targets.

Shacklz 6y ago

> mostly based on some outdated views on the role of the army And this is where we differ - I think _your_ opinion is outdated ;) The services that you listed mostly do not require an "army", what exactly is camouflage gear & combat training good for with regards to helping with covid-related tasks (or any other "Katastrophenhilfe"-related endeavour)? The "Swiss army knife" metaphor is exactly what I so despise about the Swiss army; it's their excuse for essentially being an eternal "Pfadilager" for adults. Actual participation in conflicts mentioned by GP aren't an option anyway thanks to Switzerland's neutrality. Luckily, it seems the trend is clearly in my opinion's favor, as was evident once again with the results of the last referendum on fighter jets - the pro-army-folks are a dying breed, it is just a matter of time until the 'Wehrpflicht' is finally abolished (I estimate it takes another ~20 years or so until the cold war era generation starts to become a minority), and when that happens, it's just a matter of time until the rest of the army gets to boot too, as all the nostalgia-driven sentiments towards it will not exist anymore (currently, put 10 Swiss men in a room, and it will take at most half an hour until their army experience becomes a topic). And you know what? It'll be for the better of the world, and Switzerland especially. Finally, we will be able to say "We do not participate in this barbarian head smashing anymore, we're civilized folks"; someone needs to make the start and Switzerland is in the best position to do so. We're already not participating anyway; but we're still training generation after generation to do so; and this needs to stop eventually. My hope is that this will be the case in the next 20-30 years or so, I wouldn't mind if it was earlier ;)

themaninthedark 6y ago
Si vis pacem, para bellum. "If you want peace, prepare for war" I am not Swiss so my opinion might not matter to you but I would say that there are many skills that are taught with military service that help out in other circumstances. Organization, mindfulness and the ability to give and receive orders. >currently, put 10 Swiss men in a room, and it will take at >most half an hour until their army experience becomes a >topic What is wrong with having something that is common across generations and backgrounds that allows people to connect with each other? In my opinion we should train people to have many skills or better put: >A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an >invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, >write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, >comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act >alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch >manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight >efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. > >-Robert A. Heinlein