4 ms·

A castle gives you a hard time when you only have a gun. If the military has aircraft, missile launchers, and artillery, they'll be flattened before any fightin

A castle gives you a hard time when you only have a gun. If the military has aircraft, missile launchers, and artillery, they'll be flattened before any fighting occurs. Plus it's a pretty easy target.

hutzlibu 6y ago
From Wikipedia about Monte Cassino "On 15 February American bombers dropped 1,400 tons of high explosives, creating widespread damage.[6] The raid failed to achieve its objective, as German paratroopers then occupied the rubble and established excellent defensive positions amid the ruins. "
- gonzo41 6y ago
  Those were unguided bombs. Modern artillery and mortars will just slowly wear down a static target like that. From a safe distance as well.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    And that comes for free? It binds ressources. Lots of them. You even write "slowly". Meaning fortification is still effective. While the enemy artillery is busy bombing stone, your troops can attack other targets from from other angles.
    - engineer_22 6y ago
      That's right. But civilians believe the US air force is omnipotent.
  - tosseuthansia 6y ago
    it was still 1400 tons of high explosive. Monte Cassino was reduced to rubble. The entire monastery was reduced to ruble and had to be rebuild from the ground up. Also, the US did have artillery at the time, which is bloody precise. It didn't matter, the Monte Cassino was a meat grinder for the Allies. Anyway, why dredge WWII era stuff? The US got spanked in Afghanistan by an irregular militia with bolt action rifles. And their tactic is simple as it is brilliant - negate the advantage of air raids by fighting as close to the enemy as possible.
    - SuoDuanDao 6y ago
      not sure if you got flagged because Afghanistan didn't have actual 'castles' or because some American Exceptionalists took exception to your language...
      - hutzlibu 6y ago
        He probably got flagged for his other post.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        > not sure if you got flagged because Afghanistan didn't have actual 'castles' https://www.google.com/maps/place/Nad-e-+Ali,+Afghanistan/@31.6422497,64.2404905,458m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!1m2!2m1!1snad+e+ali!3m4!1s0x3ed8037fc403d723:0x2c7e8e2fdc421217!8m2!3d31.664194!4d64.2660713 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Nad-e-+Ali,+Afghanistan/@3...
        SuoDuanDao 6y ago
        More the fool I, of course it would. Though I never heard of the Taliban using them, natural caves are probably better against aircraft.
    - cyberdelica 6y ago
      > And their tactic is simple as it is brilliant - negate the advantage of air raids by fighting as close to the enemy as possible. The same tactic was used to good effect, by the Viet Cong.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    How does 'safe distance' work? If you can hit them... they can hit you. And they know exactly where you're firing from as soon as you send up a shell into the air.
    - heavenlyblue 6y ago
      You can shoot and move the artillery immediately.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        Well that's not safe distance then is it - that's manoeuvring. You can do that at any distance. And you can't suppress if you're firing one shot, spending five minutes moving, and then firing one more shot.
- tosseuthansia 6y ago
  What's often not told of the Battle of Monte Cassino is the destruction of a jewel of the West. To the Germans' credit, they offered not to take the monastery as a position if the Allies wouldn't bomb it. They only took the advantageous positions after it'd been reduced to ruble. The Germans also helped evacuate as much of the stuff inside as possible, moving it to the Vatican, where the monks trusted the Germans wouldn't steal the stuff. To further trust amongst the locals and monks, a monk accompanied every truck to the Vatican. As a result most of the library was saved. Monte Cassino is one of the (many) examples of Allied war crimes and one of the (very) few examples of German honor in WWII.
  - dsohn0 6y ago
    As a Jew I find this concept of german military honor during ww2 utterly repugnant. This fetishization of nazis is utterly sick, why don't you also give us examples of the honor of pol pots army or the honor of Argentina's military when they were disappearing people. Absolutely repugnant.
    - MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
      I think what the commenter is mentioning is about the individuals. Remember, Nazi Germany instituted a draft and had conscription. Not every German soldier was a Nazi. You can mention the honor of the individuals themselves without praising the regime that lorded over them.
      - hutzlibu 6y ago
        Not really. If you have really honour, you don't fight for a murderous regime. You fight against it. Easier said, than done, when you have family etc. but any praise of the Wehrmacht is pretty out of place, considering the context. They only turned against Hitler when the war was about to be lost. Not before. But given your name, you might see things differently.
      - dsohn0 6y ago
        Every German soldier was an instrument of mass murder. How is this bullshit about individual soldiers brought up only when losers try to defend the german military being tools of nazi murder but not the individual brave soldier in pol pots army or the honorable spanish fascist? Maybe you think your grandpa was a nice soldier but he contributed to systemic genocide.
- buran77 6y ago
  To be fair that quote is probably mostly about carpet bombing with relatively small bombs. In modern warfare not only are weapons a lot more precise but they also pack a lot more high yield explosives. Also most old fortifications were made to stand hits coming from the ground towards the outer walls, not from above. The reason almost any above ground strongholds still hold up today is that they're packed with civilians, not because their walls are that strong.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
  If only 2 tons of that 1400 tons hit the target, was it the bombs that were defective, or the accuracy of the planes?
speeder 6y ago
Krak DID got hit with all of these, it is still standing, and the people inside still kept fighting. Same for some other castles in Syria from my research out of curiosity. But I assume that people wanted to take the castles, not turn them into a parking lot... if you can nuke or throw MOAB into them, then it is obviously another matter entirely.

hutzlibu 6y ago

From Wikipedia about Monte Cassino "On 15 February American bombers dropped 1,400 tons of high explosives, creating widespread damage.[6] The raid failed to achieve its objective, as German paratroopers then occupied the rubble and established excellent defensive positions amid the ruins. "

gonzo41 6y ago
Those were unguided bombs. Modern artillery and mortars will just slowly wear down a static target like that. From a safe distance as well.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  And that comes for free? It binds ressources. Lots of them. You even write "slowly". Meaning fortification is still effective. While the enemy artillery is busy bombing stone, your troops can attack other targets from from other angles.
  - engineer_22 6y ago
    That's right. But civilians believe the US air force is omnipotent.
- tosseuthansia 6y ago
  it was still 1400 tons of high explosive. Monte Cassino was reduced to rubble. The entire monastery was reduced to ruble and had to be rebuild from the ground up. Also, the US did have artillery at the time, which is bloody precise. It didn't matter, the Monte Cassino was a meat grinder for the Allies. Anyway, why dredge WWII era stuff? The US got spanked in Afghanistan by an irregular militia with bolt action rifles. And their tactic is simple as it is brilliant - negate the advantage of air raids by fighting as close to the enemy as possible.
  - SuoDuanDao 6y ago
    not sure if you got flagged because Afghanistan didn't have actual 'castles' or because some American Exceptionalists took exception to your language...
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      He probably got flagged for his other post.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      > not sure if you got flagged because Afghanistan didn't have actual 'castles' https://www.google.com/maps/place/Nad-e-+Ali,+Afghanistan/@31.6422497,64.2404905,458m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!1m2!2m1!1snad+e+ali!3m4!1s0x3ed8037fc403d723:0x2c7e8e2fdc421217!8m2!3d31.664194!4d64.2660713 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Nad-e-+Ali,+Afghanistan/@3...
      - SuoDuanDao 6y ago
        More the fool I, of course it would. Though I never heard of the Taliban using them, natural caves are probably better against aircraft.
  - cyberdelica 6y ago
    > And their tactic is simple as it is brilliant - negate the advantage of air raids by fighting as close to the enemy as possible. The same tactic was used to good effect, by the Viet Cong.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  How does 'safe distance' work? If you can hit them... they can hit you. And they know exactly where you're firing from as soon as you send up a shell into the air.
  - heavenlyblue 6y ago
    You can shoot and move the artillery immediately.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      Well that's not safe distance then is it - that's manoeuvring. You can do that at any distance. And you can't suppress if you're firing one shot, spending five minutes moving, and then firing one more shot.
tosseuthansia 6y ago
What's often not told of the Battle of Monte Cassino is the destruction of a jewel of the West. To the Germans' credit, they offered not to take the monastery as a position if the Allies wouldn't bomb it. They only took the advantageous positions after it'd been reduced to ruble. The Germans also helped evacuate as much of the stuff inside as possible, moving it to the Vatican, where the monks trusted the Germans wouldn't steal the stuff. To further trust amongst the locals and monks, a monk accompanied every truck to the Vatican. As a result most of the library was saved. Monte Cassino is one of the (many) examples of Allied war crimes and one of the (very) few examples of German honor in WWII.
- dsohn0 6y ago
  As a Jew I find this concept of german military honor during ww2 utterly repugnant. This fetishization of nazis is utterly sick, why don't you also give us examples of the honor of pol pots army or the honor of Argentina's military when they were disappearing people. Absolutely repugnant.
  - MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
    I think what the commenter is mentioning is about the individuals. Remember, Nazi Germany instituted a draft and had conscription. Not every German soldier was a Nazi. You can mention the honor of the individuals themselves without praising the regime that lorded over them.
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      Not really. If you have really honour, you don't fight for a murderous regime. You fight against it. Easier said, than done, when you have family etc. but any praise of the Wehrmacht is pretty out of place, considering the context. They only turned against Hitler when the war was about to be lost. Not before. But given your name, you might see things differently.
    - dsohn0 6y ago
      Every German soldier was an instrument of mass murder. How is this bullshit about individual soldiers brought up only when losers try to defend the german military being tools of nazi murder but not the individual brave soldier in pol pots army or the honorable spanish fascist? Maybe you think your grandpa was a nice soldier but he contributed to systemic genocide.
buran77 6y ago
To be fair that quote is probably mostly about carpet bombing with relatively small bombs. In modern warfare not only are weapons a lot more precise but they also pack a lot more high yield explosives. Also most old fortifications were made to stand hits coming from the ground towards the outer walls, not from above. The reason almost any above ground strongholds still hold up today is that they're packed with civilians, not because their walls are that strong.
MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
If only 2 tons of that 1400 tons hit the target, was it the bombs that were defective, or the accuracy of the planes?

speeder 6y ago

Krak DID got hit with all of these, it is still standing, and the people inside still kept fighting. Same for some other castles in Syria from my research out of curiosity. But I assume that people wanted to take the castles, not turn them into a parking lot... if you can nuke or throw MOAB into them, then it is obviously another matter entirely.