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I live in India. I am already hearing companies offering planned month long vacation tours to UK/US where you could get yourself vaccinated with vaccines that a

I live in India. I am already hearing companies offering planned month long vacation tours to UK/US where you could get yourself vaccinated with vaccines that aren't available in India.

m1gu3l 6y ago
not surprising. i am shocked people aren’t hawking fakes on the dark net yet.
- oxfordmale 6y ago
  I am sure my Junk email box is full with offers for private vaccination already
  - jfengel 6y ago
    I just checked, and I didn't see any. The closest was an offer for KN95 masks. (Though this is GMail, which I think has started to just auto-delete a lot of the worst stuff. My spam folder now gets spams-per-day rather than kilospams-per-day.)
mantap 6y ago
The Pfizer vaccine won't be available privately in UK, not for a long time. So I think they will be disappointed.
- checker659 6y ago
  What stops pfizer from selling directly to customers?
  - bencoder 6y ago
    Probably the billions that governments have paid for their place in the queue
    - checker659 6y ago
      India alone has 759k millionaires. Assuming each has a family of four, and they’re willing to pay just $500 for a two shot course on an exclusive basis (say). That alone will be make pfizer about 1.58 billion dollars. There are 13555k millionaires outside of Europe and US. The 1.9 billion paid by the US government for 100million viles pales in front of what pfizer could earn by catering to the rich. So, again, my question stands, why wouldn’t pfizer sell directly to customers? What binds them to just deal with governments alone? I ask this as a humble non-millionaire (just to clarify that I wouldn’t benefit from such a scheme in any way) :)
      - jayflux 6y ago
        Do you honestly think Pfizer would come off well (PR wise) if they put millionaires in the front of the queue for cash? At a time when vulnerable people are dying? The $1.58bn wouldn’t be worth sinking their entire brand, not even close.
        howlgarnish 6y ago
        Pfizer doesn't have to do anything. The vaccines will be sent all over the world, all destined for reputable hospitals where they're intended to be used for elderly transgender orphans with pre-existing conditions working in COVID ICUs. However, some shipments will mysteriously fall off the truck on the way there, and will resurface at private hospitals for the elite who can and will pay large quantities for them.
      - jeromegv 6y ago
        They are already sold out. There’s no spare. And yes they can sell to millionaire but states purchases millions of doses at a Time, not 5.
  - sgerenser 6y ago
    Lack of supply. They’ve already pre-sold all they could make to governments.
    - iguy 6y ago
      Presumably they pre-sold based on estimates of their production. I would not be very surprised if it turns out they can make 10% more than they committed, and auction this off. And would expect hospitals treating Saudi princelings & the like to win such an auction. But does anyone actually know what these pre-sale contracts look like? They must have some wiggle room in case production doesn't go as well as planned... are there just penalties for late delivery to specific customers, or explicitly tied to total production, or did they literally sell places in the queue, or what?
      - makomk 6y ago
        Last I'd heard, they overestimated how much they could produce and presold more than they could actually deliver at least at first.
      - bluGill 6y ago
        Companies that have a vaccine are aware of image. They know that the world is watching, and this is a big marketing opportunity. They will make a profit, but long term goodwill is more valuable than any profit they could make selling to billionaires, so I doubt anything will go to auction. The hospitals treating Saudi princes are real hospitals. So they can win auctions if it comes down to that, because they are invited to them while the rest of the black market isn't. I don't think real vaccines will come to auction though. There is one thing left: vaccines that have approval issues. Any vaccine that is somewhat effective by not enough (The Oxford vaccine at 65% efficiency is questionable). The Russian vaccine. Any of many that haven't started phase 3 trails yet. Any vaccine that has safety issues. All are candidates for someone to "leak" to the underground. You will have to consider the risks, but it might be worth it to get it now and then in a year when the better vaccines come to you get that too.
        iguy 6y ago
  - ChrisRR 6y ago
    As someone who works in medical devices, there's huge sections of standards referring to confirming that software and devices reach the intended user untampered and analysing the risk of selling to an untrained customers and things like that. The long and the short of it always boils down to, it's not worth the risk to sell to individuals. Because if something goes wrong and someone is injured or killed, the regulatory agencies are going to come down on you like a ton of bricks I would assume similar practices exist for pharmaceuticals.
mhandley 6y ago
The vaccine is not available privately in the UK. If you're not registered with the NHS, you're probably not going to be able to get vaccinated in the UK anytime soon. Even if you are registered, you will probably have to wait til late spring if you're under 50 with no underlying health issues.
- Beggers1960 6y ago
  This. The idea that people are planning 'vaccine holidays' is bizarre.
  - zwp 6y ago
    Perhaps it is a scam?
    - alibarber 6y ago
      It's absolutely is either an outright scam or just crafty marketing off the back of this. The comment says 'vaccines that aren't available in India' of which I'm sure there may well be plenty, just not necessarily the COVID one.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    I'm sure people are planning one. That doesn't mean they will be successful. Most of the people with enough money to do this are alert for scams (though they might decide it is 80% chance of scam and decide to risk it anyway), so they will be looking to see if they will get the vaccine in the end, and if they don't think you will deliver they won't go. I would expect anyone who gets a "black market" vaccine gets one of the not approved (yet) vaccines. That supply is sitting around and probably not tracked as much. Break into a warehouse (often with insider help, possibly at high levels such that most people in the company help you because your alibi checks out), get a supply, then send it to your black market buddies. Pfizer has a legal market now and will do everything to ship to that market. Moderna is close enough that they won't risk it. The Oxford vaccine has a lot of companies who can make it and an uncertain future (60% effective when there is a 95%?) so it is the most likely candidate, for this. Russia also is making a vaccine that they might be willing to sell like this. China might as well, but I find it unlikely as they have other markets. Of course this whole paragraph is pure speculation: anything is possible.
peteretep 6y ago
That seems bizarre — you’re much more likely to be able to get it privately in India or Thailand or any other country that has good healthcare for the rich and few qualms about allowing people to buy in private stock. Much easier to pay $500 to a private clinic in Mumbai than fly to the West and hope that you can convince the state to provide it
- robjan 6y ago
  The state will not provide it to non-residents. As soon as you arrive in the UK, immigration stamps "no recourse to public funds" in black all-caps into your passport as a friendly reminder.
  - dTal 6y ago
    In this specific instance, you're probably right that there will be paperwork. However, in general, acute healthcare in free in the UK and does not even require ID. I don't know if that's how it's "meant" to be, but that's how it is; if you're on vacation in the UK and something bad happens, you can just turn up at the nearest hospital and it will get sorted out, no bill no fuss.
    - peteretep 6y ago
      How it’s “meant” to be is that you’re asked for where you’re registered, and your NHS records are pulled up, and if you’re not registered at a GP practice or in the NHS system you get a bill
      - improbable22 6y ago
        But I think there are some exceptions for communicable diseases, which they will treat without attempting to bill you. I doubt vaccination would fall under that but don't really know.
      - dTal 6y ago
        That's not what happens, though. You can just say "I'm not registered with a GP" (and many people aren't), and you will still be treated - no bill.
alibarber 6y ago
Is this not just cynical marketing? Sure, there are likely to be plenty of vaccines one could get in the UK/US that aren't available easily in India or elsewhere. But you/they didn't say anything about the COVID one...
ulfw 6y ago
I'd be up for it, no doubt. Hong Kong doesn't seem interested to vaccinate people before 2022ish. https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/3112750/coronavirus-hong-kong-infectious-disease-expert https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/artic...

I live in India. I am already hearing companies offering planned month long vacation tours to UK/US where you could get yourself vaccinated with vaccines that aren't available in India.

m1gu3l 6y ago

not surprising. i am shocked people aren’t hawking fakes on the dark net yet.

oxfordmale 6y ago
I am sure my Junk email box is full with offers for private vaccination already
- jfengel 6y ago
  I just checked, and I didn't see any. The closest was an offer for KN95 masks. (Though this is GMail, which I think has started to just auto-delete a lot of the worst stuff. My spam folder now gets spams-per-day rather than kilospams-per-day.)

mantap 6y ago

The Pfizer vaccine won't be available privately in UK, not for a long time. So I think they will be disappointed.

checker659 6y ago
What stops pfizer from selling directly to customers?
- bencoder 6y ago
  Probably the billions that governments have paid for their place in the queue
  - checker659 6y ago
    India alone has 759k millionaires. Assuming each has a family of four, and they’re willing to pay just $500 for a two shot course on an exclusive basis (say). That alone will be make pfizer about 1.58 billion dollars. There are 13555k millionaires outside of Europe and US. The 1.9 billion paid by the US government for 100million viles pales in front of what pfizer could earn by catering to the rich. So, again, my question stands, why wouldn’t pfizer sell directly to customers? What binds them to just deal with governments alone? I ask this as a humble non-millionaire (just to clarify that I wouldn’t benefit from such a scheme in any way) :)
    - jayflux 6y ago
      Do you honestly think Pfizer would come off well (PR wise) if they put millionaires in the front of the queue for cash? At a time when vulnerable people are dying? The $1.58bn wouldn’t be worth sinking their entire brand, not even close.
      - howlgarnish 6y ago
        Pfizer doesn't have to do anything. The vaccines will be sent all over the world, all destined for reputable hospitals where they're intended to be used for elderly transgender orphans with pre-existing conditions working in COVID ICUs. However, some shipments will mysteriously fall off the truck on the way there, and will resurface at private hospitals for the elite who can and will pay large quantities for them.
    - jeromegv 6y ago
      They are already sold out. There’s no spare. And yes they can sell to millionaire but states purchases millions of doses at a Time, not 5.
- sgerenser 6y ago
  Lack of supply. They’ve already pre-sold all they could make to governments.
  - iguy 6y ago
    Presumably they pre-sold based on estimates of their production. I would not be very surprised if it turns out they can make 10% more than they committed, and auction this off. And would expect hospitals treating Saudi princelings & the like to win such an auction. But does anyone actually know what these pre-sale contracts look like? They must have some wiggle room in case production doesn't go as well as planned... are there just penalties for late delivery to specific customers, or explicitly tied to total production, or did they literally sell places in the queue, or what?
    - makomk 6y ago
      Last I'd heard, they overestimated how much they could produce and presold more than they could actually deliver at least at first.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      Companies that have a vaccine are aware of image. They know that the world is watching, and this is a big marketing opportunity. They will make a profit, but long term goodwill is more valuable than any profit they could make selling to billionaires, so I doubt anything will go to auction. The hospitals treating Saudi princes are real hospitals. So they can win auctions if it comes down to that, because they are invited to them while the rest of the black market isn't. I don't think real vaccines will come to auction though. There is one thing left: vaccines that have approval issues. Any vaccine that is somewhat effective by not enough (The Oxford vaccine at 65% efficiency is questionable). The Russian vaccine. Any of many that haven't started phase 3 trails yet. Any vaccine that has safety issues. All are candidates for someone to "leak" to the underground. You will have to consider the risks, but it might be worth it to get it now and then in a year when the better vaccines come to you get that too.
      - iguy 6y ago
- ChrisRR 6y ago
  As someone who works in medical devices, there's huge sections of standards referring to confirming that software and devices reach the intended user untampered and analysing the risk of selling to an untrained customers and things like that. The long and the short of it always boils down to, it's not worth the risk to sell to individuals. Because if something goes wrong and someone is injured or killed, the regulatory agencies are going to come down on you like a ton of bricks I would assume similar practices exist for pharmaceuticals.

mhandley 6y ago

The vaccine is not available privately in the UK. If you're not registered with the NHS, you're probably not going to be able to get vaccinated in the UK anytime soon. Even if you are registered, you will probably have to wait til late spring if you're under 50 with no underlying health issues.

Beggers1960 6y ago
This. The idea that people are planning 'vaccine holidays' is bizarre.
- zwp 6y ago
  Perhaps it is a scam?
  - alibarber 6y ago
    It's absolutely is either an outright scam or just crafty marketing off the back of this. The comment says 'vaccines that aren't available in India' of which I'm sure there may well be plenty, just not necessarily the COVID one.
- bluGill 6y ago
  I'm sure people are planning one. That doesn't mean they will be successful. Most of the people with enough money to do this are alert for scams (though they might decide it is 80% chance of scam and decide to risk it anyway), so they will be looking to see if they will get the vaccine in the end, and if they don't think you will deliver they won't go. I would expect anyone who gets a "black market" vaccine gets one of the not approved (yet) vaccines. That supply is sitting around and probably not tracked as much. Break into a warehouse (often with insider help, possibly at high levels such that most people in the company help you because your alibi checks out), get a supply, then send it to your black market buddies. Pfizer has a legal market now and will do everything to ship to that market. Moderna is close enough that they won't risk it. The Oxford vaccine has a lot of companies who can make it and an uncertain future (60% effective when there is a 95%?) so it is the most likely candidate, for this. Russia also is making a vaccine that they might be willing to sell like this. China might as well, but I find it unlikely as they have other markets. Of course this whole paragraph is pure speculation: anything is possible.

peteretep 6y ago

That seems bizarre — you’re much more likely to be able to get it privately in India or Thailand or any other country that has good healthcare for the rich and few qualms about allowing people to buy in private stock. Much easier to pay $500 to a private clinic in Mumbai than fly to the West and hope that you can convince the state to provide it

robjan 6y ago
The state will not provide it to non-residents. As soon as you arrive in the UK, immigration stamps "no recourse to public funds" in black all-caps into your passport as a friendly reminder.
- dTal 6y ago
  In this specific instance, you're probably right that there will be paperwork. However, in general, acute healthcare in free in the UK and does not even require ID. I don't know if that's how it's "meant" to be, but that's how it is; if you're on vacation in the UK and something bad happens, you can just turn up at the nearest hospital and it will get sorted out, no bill no fuss.
  - peteretep 6y ago
    How it’s “meant” to be is that you’re asked for where you’re registered, and your NHS records are pulled up, and if you’re not registered at a GP practice or in the NHS system you get a bill
    - improbable22 6y ago
      But I think there are some exceptions for communicable diseases, which they will treat without attempting to bill you. I doubt vaccination would fall under that but don't really know.
    - dTal 6y ago
      That's not what happens, though. You can just say "I'm not registered with a GP" (and many people aren't), and you will still be treated - no bill.

alibarber 6y ago

Is this not just cynical marketing? Sure, there are likely to be plenty of vaccines one could get in the UK/US that aren't available easily in India or elsewhere. But you/they didn't say anything about the COVID one...

ulfw 6y ago

I'd be up for it, no doubt. Hong Kong doesn't seem interested to vaccinate people before 2022ish. https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/3112750/coronavirus-hong-kong-infectious-disease-expert https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/artic...