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> Some people aren't any good at searching. You don't need to be good to Google most things. > Sometimes just asking someone who knows can be quicker. Google

> Some people aren't any good at searching. You don't need to be good to Google most things. > Sometimes just asking someone who knows can be quicker. Google knows the answer to most simple queries like this. You shouldn't ask a question where the answer is trivially Googled; Google first, then ask when you can't find the answer. The previous poster had the right attitude by saying let me Google that for you, it's such a pervasive problem that sites like http://lmgtfy.com http://lmgtfy.com have to exist to help educate lazy people. Yes, some people prefer to ask a human rather than Google; those people are lazy and need to be educated, not pacified.

panacea 16y ago
Ack.. I can't fault your reasoning, and I am definitely in the http://lygtfy.com http://lygtfy.com camp, but I have to pause and reflect on this: "Yes, some people prefer to ask a human rather than Google; those people are lazy and need to be educated, not pacified." Doesn't it strike you as somewhat borg-like, subsumed by technology that we should deny people to impulse to ask other people things? I realize that aggregators and comments sections give a sort of false illusion that it's a small number of people in a conversation when the number of actual viewers of a thread (and hence, multiple wasted 'human' cycles spent processing 'noise'), but seriously... we should always defer to the algorithm, the index, the internet rather than asking humans?
- vacri 16y ago
  There is an immense difference between "can someone give me their phone number" and "I'm having troubles with mdadm picking up this array, can someone help out?" Pandering to trivial requests only encourages trivial requests. Hell, in a forum recently I responded to someone saying "you need version -foo- and you can find it here (link)". He said thanks... then three days later asked where he could find it (link was still valid). The next two comments were asking where they could find the exact thing in the link I'd given and described the parameters of. You also see the same thing in countless forums where commentor -foo- comes along, ignores the comments, and demands someone PM them with the solution. I don't have a problem with repeating stuff that's buried in the comments on page 5 or whatnot, but when it's this level of trivial crap, it is just chaff and shouldn't be encouraged.
  - gte910h 16y ago
    The number is actually not on the google page. Only by asking a human did they get the actual number I have called to get this sort of question answered on. I honestly didn't realize it was a hard to find resource either which is why I left it out, but even googling it, I don't see it anywhere. Also: Be nice to the guys on the other end of it. They've never been less than that to anyone who's been nice to them, nor treated them like idiots. Also, they don't set the policy, they just help devs navigate them. They are also decidedly non-technical, but policy based.
akkartik 16y ago
I use Google a lot and I still occasionally ask a question without thinking to google it. I think most people are like that. Why be snarky about it? I'd rather just remind them, 'google it' without all the unfriendly judgement that they're being lazy. It's not like people are personally asking icey or you dozens of questions a day. The questioner has shown no evidence of laziness. Let us all exercise a little restraint.
- gnaritas 16y ago
  > It's not like people are personally asking icey or you dozens of questions a day. On here, no, but in real life, yes, I get asked dozens of questions a day people could easily answer themselves if they just Googled. There's a reason programmers start getting annoyed with people being lazy; they're making you do their thinking for them and you get sick of it. > I think most people are like that. Why be snarky about it? Because one gets tired of doing other people's thinking for them when they're capable of doing it themselves. > and I still occasionally ask a question without thinking to google it. That's the problem, that happens to me constantly by people who just don't think; it's rude; your process should start with Google before bugging someone else who's just going to Google anyway.
  - akkartik 16y ago
    That is extremely uncompromising. Somebody asking the air a stupid question is always refusing to think for themselves? You're assuming unwillingness from the equivalent of a brainfart. Nobody was even asking you specifically. Is it really easier to call people names than to just move on to read other stuff? ..bugging someone else who's just going to Google anyway No, people are often asking if someone knows the answer off the top of their head. Anyways, this thread has outlived its usefulness. Over and out.
    - gnaritas 16y ago
      > Is it really easier to call people names than to just move on to read other stuff? I didn't call anyone names, please don't put words in my mouth. I described their behavior as being lazy, that is not name calling. > Anyways, this thread has outlived its usefulness. Over and out. Ditto.
bittermang 16y ago
> You shouldn't ask a question where the answer is trivially Googled. So we're discouraging asking questions now? That's a troubling stance. Google's general improvements at googling are making things easier to google. But the world keeps inventing better idiots, and it is a cat and mouse game. Which is not to say that anyone in this thread is an idiot; far from it. But we must recognize that some people are inherently bad at search. Are they intimidated? Are they inputting the wrong queries? Are they asking the right things but unable to find what they're seeking in their results? There are quite a lot of things that could go wrong with the search itself, before even addressing the individual and how they seek and learn. Some people learn by reading. Some people learn by listening. Some people learn by doing. This is not a weakness or a laziness issue, this is a human behavior issue. You're not pacifying people by giving them the information they're seeking. We used to call that answering, because they asked a question. If, as posed in this scenario, the first poser provided incomplete information, and the second poster posted a question asking for clarification or more details, I really fail to see how this is laziness that needs to be pacified. That is a very negative view of someone who just wanted more details. The person was seeking education, they asked a question. Negativity and arrogance on how it was so obvious and they should have just searched for it are not helping educate anyone. They have the opposite effect: next time the person may not even bother asking at all, now feeling alienated and perhaps it's best to not try to learn at all. That doesn't help anyone. Not the person, the community, you, or me. We are all left worse for it.
- gabrielroth 16y ago
  > So we're discouraging asking questions now? That's a troubling stance. It seems pretty obvious that some questions are better not posted on a discussion site, because they bring down the value of the conversation.
- gnaritas 16y ago
  We disagree. You are encouraging a bad habit and teaching people they don't need to think at all if you continually respond to easily answered questions they could have found in 5 seconds with a Google search. It is not negative to tell them to Google for themselves, it's teaching a man to fish. The answer to all simple questions is Google it yourself, that's a more valuable education than any other response.
gte910h 16y ago
Google was "incorrect": >The correct number is 1 (408) 996-1010, ask for developer relations, 8am-5pm pacific time. >It is not on that page. In this case, pointing out I left out the number was the correct move.
ThomPete 16y ago
I find this attitude to be a legacy of the IRC channels.

panacea 16y ago

Ack.. I can't fault your reasoning, and I am definitely in the http://lygtfy.com http://lygtfy.com camp, but I have to pause and reflect on this: "Yes, some people prefer to ask a human rather than Google; those people are lazy and need to be educated, not pacified." Doesn't it strike you as somewhat borg-like, subsumed by technology that we should deny people to impulse to ask other people things? I realize that aggregators and comments sections give a sort of false illusion that it's a small number of people in a conversation when the number of actual viewers of a thread (and hence, multiple wasted 'human' cycles spent processing 'noise'), but seriously... we should always defer to the algorithm, the index, the internet rather than asking humans?

vacri 16y ago
There is an immense difference between "can someone give me their phone number" and "I'm having troubles with mdadm picking up this array, can someone help out?" Pandering to trivial requests only encourages trivial requests. Hell, in a forum recently I responded to someone saying "you need version -foo- and you can find it here (link)". He said thanks... then three days later asked where he could find it (link was still valid). The next two comments were asking where they could find the exact thing in the link I'd given and described the parameters of. You also see the same thing in countless forums where commentor -foo- comes along, ignores the comments, and demands someone PM them with the solution. I don't have a problem with repeating stuff that's buried in the comments on page 5 or whatnot, but when it's this level of trivial crap, it is just chaff and shouldn't be encouraged.
- gte910h 16y ago
  The number is actually not on the google page. Only by asking a human did they get the actual number I have called to get this sort of question answered on. I honestly didn't realize it was a hard to find resource either which is why I left it out, but even googling it, I don't see it anywhere. Also: Be nice to the guys on the other end of it. They've never been less than that to anyone who's been nice to them, nor treated them like idiots. Also, they don't set the policy, they just help devs navigate them. They are also decidedly non-technical, but policy based.

akkartik 16y ago

I use Google a lot and I still occasionally ask a question without thinking to google it. I think most people are like that. Why be snarky about it? I'd rather just remind them, 'google it' without all the unfriendly judgement that they're being lazy. It's not like people are personally asking icey or you dozens of questions a day. The questioner has shown no evidence of laziness. Let us all exercise a little restraint.

gnaritas 16y ago
> It's not like people are personally asking icey or you dozens of questions a day. On here, no, but in real life, yes, I get asked dozens of questions a day people could easily answer themselves if they just Googled. There's a reason programmers start getting annoyed with people being lazy; they're making you do their thinking for them and you get sick of it. > I think most people are like that. Why be snarky about it? Because one gets tired of doing other people's thinking for them when they're capable of doing it themselves. > and I still occasionally ask a question without thinking to google it. That's the problem, that happens to me constantly by people who just don't think; it's rude; your process should start with Google before bugging someone else who's just going to Google anyway.
- akkartik 16y ago
  That is extremely uncompromising. Somebody asking the air a stupid question is always refusing to think for themselves? You're assuming unwillingness from the equivalent of a brainfart. Nobody was even asking you specifically. Is it really easier to call people names than to just move on to read other stuff? ..bugging someone else who's just going to Google anyway No, people are often asking if someone knows the answer off the top of their head. Anyways, this thread has outlived its usefulness. Over and out.
  - gnaritas 16y ago
    > Is it really easier to call people names than to just move on to read other stuff? I didn't call anyone names, please don't put words in my mouth. I described their behavior as being lazy, that is not name calling. > Anyways, this thread has outlived its usefulness. Over and out. Ditto.

bittermang 16y ago

> You shouldn't ask a question where the answer is trivially Googled. So we're discouraging asking questions now? That's a troubling stance. Google's general improvements at googling are making things easier to google. But the world keeps inventing better idiots, and it is a cat and mouse game. Which is not to say that anyone in this thread is an idiot; far from it. But we must recognize that some people are inherently bad at search. Are they intimidated? Are they inputting the wrong queries? Are they asking the right things but unable to find what they're seeking in their results? There are quite a lot of things that could go wrong with the search itself, before even addressing the individual and how they seek and learn. Some people learn by reading. Some people learn by listening. Some people learn by doing. This is not a weakness or a laziness issue, this is a human behavior issue. You're not pacifying people by giving them the information they're seeking. We used to call that answering, because they asked a question. If, as posed in this scenario, the first poser provided incomplete information, and the second poster posted a question asking for clarification or more details, I really fail to see how this is laziness that needs to be pacified. That is a very negative view of someone who just wanted more details. The person was seeking education, they asked a question. Negativity and arrogance on how it was so obvious and they should have just searched for it are not helping educate anyone. They have the opposite effect: next time the person may not even bother asking at all, now feeling alienated and perhaps it's best to not try to learn at all. That doesn't help anyone. Not the person, the community, you, or me. We are all left worse for it.

gabrielroth 16y ago
> So we're discouraging asking questions now? That's a troubling stance. It seems pretty obvious that some questions are better not posted on a discussion site, because they bring down the value of the conversation.
gnaritas 16y ago
We disagree. You are encouraging a bad habit and teaching people they don't need to think at all if you continually respond to easily answered questions they could have found in 5 seconds with a Google search. It is not negative to tell them to Google for themselves, it's teaching a man to fish. The answer to all simple questions is Google it yourself, that's a more valuable education than any other response.

gte910h 16y ago

Google was "incorrect": >The correct number is 1 (408) 996-1010, ask for developer relations, 8am-5pm pacific time. >It is not on that page. In this case, pointing out I left out the number was the correct move.

ThomPete 16y ago

I find this attitude to be a legacy of the IRC channels.