6 ms·

I'd imagine that in this case, as in many others, it is purely punitive. The state just likes reminding 'troublemakers' of its monopoly on violence.

godelski 6y ago
If this is the case (I'm not saying it is or isn't), then that is more akin to gestapo tactics and should not be even remotely acceptable by anyone in society. More so those on the right who often draw analogies to the Soviet Union.
- slg 6y ago
  If you are surprised by these tactics, there are hours and hours of video you should watch from peaceful protests that have occurred over the last 6 months.
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    Fiery but peaceful protests, right? Or, the correct, non-orwellian term: violent riots.
  - godelski 6y ago
    Surprised? No. Trying to not make a left or right comment? Yes.
    - slg 6y ago
      Fair enough. I would have liked if the state shouldn't use violence punitively was just an American stance rather than a left or right one.
      - frabbit 6y ago
        Honestly this seems like a bonkers denial of reality: the State is exactly the embodiment of the use and monopoly of violence. Pretending otherwise is ignoring hundreds of years of empirical data.
        slg 6y ago
        We aren't denying or even objecting to the state's monopoly on violence. The problem is the word "punitive" there. State violence should be a means to stop other violence. It shouldn't be used as a punishment by itself (beyond more indirect forms of violence such as denying someone's freedom by putting them in prison).
      - godelski 6y ago
        It shouldn't be, and that's why I'm being a bit careful with my language. To normalize that it is in fact a bilateral issue. How to solve it and what to do about, sure, those are left and right opinions. But the fact that it is an issue needs to be normalized, because it is indeed a fact.
      - Simulacra 6y ago
        I wish the state wouldn’t use government agencies putatively, such as the IRS, but they have, and will probably increase.
    - bsanr2 6y ago
      Half the problem is that you've been convinced that this is a left-right issue. It's political, absolutely. But not left-right. Stand up for what's just.
      - godelski 6y ago
        Being careful with my language should not be indicative of believing that it is a left-right issue. Being careful of my language should be indicative that I believe people will interpret it as a left-right position and I'm not here to discuss politics.
        bsanr2 6y ago
        You're talking about how society should be run and how the state should respond to issues within its purview. That's inherently political. I would say that being careful with one's language to avoid offense is reasonable, if the hypothetical other party's propensity for taking offense is reasonable. Incense at the specter of a political discussion is not reasonable.
        pbourke 6y ago
        Discussions on HN are more interesting when the partisan temperature is turned down.
        bsanr2 6y ago
        A political discussion need not be divisive. Again, it's not good that so many have been convinced that it must be.
      - girvo 6y ago
        Yeah this is more on the other axis. Authoritarianism doesn’t care about left or right.
        godelski 6y ago
    - rsynnott 6y ago
      It's an oddity of US politics that this is perceived as a left or right issue at all, in that one 'side' seems to have adopted the stance that police should be allowed do pretty much anything with no repercussions or meaningful oversight. Outside the lunatic far-right, this sort of thing would be condemned from all sides in many developed democracies.
      - UncleOxidant 6y ago
        Exactly. I can recall when the right was all upset about Ruby Ridge and Waco. Now that it's people they perceive to be their enemies being punished they're cool with it.
        notmarkus 6y ago
        Who on the "right" is cool with this? Genuinely asking.
        ojnabieoot 6y ago
        The police (and their unions, and civilian voters with authoritarian pro-police ideologies) are a major political constituency on the right, one that Donald Trump had repeatedly pandered to (because he is a pro-police authoritarian). It is beyond naive to pretend “unaccountable police violence is good” isn’t a mainstream right-wing belief in 2020. > When you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just seen them thrown in, rough. I said, ‘Please don’t be too nice.’ [Trump, July 2017] > If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you?Seriously, OK? Just knock the hell — I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. I promise. They won’t be so much, because the courts agree with us too — what’s going on in this country? [Trump, July 2016] > “Sometimes they grab one guy, ‘I’m a reporter! I’m a reporter!” ...they threw him aside like he was a little bag of popcorn.” [Trump, September 2020, clearly mocking the reporter in context] So the people on the “right” who are cool with this are basically every Republican official and about 70m Americans who voted for Trump last month. Seems like a lot of people!
    - 0x445442 6y ago
      If you weren’t trying to make a left or right comment why use the word “right”?
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  It’s obviously not the case, just a silly take. Do we really think “the state” is involved in telling police how to do their raids? Like DeSantis walked in to their planning meeting said to be extra mean, just to teach her a lesson?
- knaq 6y ago
  The case the right cares about is Roger Stone. He's an old man, no threat to anybody, who was involved in normal legal proceedings. Somebody decided to make an example out of him. He got a heavily-armed pre-dawn raid, and CNN was right there to watch.
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  Left and right are meaningless terms. I'm on the right side economically but I'm fiercely anti authoritarian and I find this terrible. I don't like the "peaceful protests" because it's just destruction of private property but I hope they can create enough momentum to push for the privatisation of police. Some BLM leader in NY was organising something like that, a militia to defend their people. I speculate this is also why people like Kyle Rittenhouse were defending people in the protests despite not agreeing with the violence (before being identified as not part of the violent mob and attacked). Incidentally I don't think police privatisation is going to happen, even under a Biden presidency, because that would remove power from the government and neither democrats nor conservatives are happy with that.
vmception 6y ago
Then we should sanction the whole state for minor infractions of one officer. Municipal bond offerings are currently exempt from SEC registration and disclosures, we can get the federal government to change that upon evidence of small infractions and force an extremely high level of disclosures such as policing statistics for the next 10 years if the municipality wants to raise capital. This beats activist's state-level FOIA requests. It doesn't harm the ability of an officer to make split second decisions and get home safely, which is usually their argument against any proposal. It doesn't require a whole civil suit or criminal suit for anything to happen. Just gets the message across that actions have consequences. It lets them run out of excuses so their real thoughts can be made as clear as day.
- op00to 6y ago
  yeah but then you make the cops sad cause they can't be shitheels anymore. so that's out.
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  There are sanctions but I think it doesn't practically work because the government is responsible for punishing his people. I think we need private police, subject to the same law as anyone else, and third party arbitration in private courts when something happens.

godelski 6y ago

If this is the case (I'm not saying it is or isn't), then that is more akin to gestapo tactics and should not be even remotely acceptable by anyone in society. More so those on the right who often draw analogies to the Soviet Union.

slg 6y ago
If you are surprised by these tactics, there are hours and hours of video you should watch from peaceful protests that have occurred over the last 6 months.
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  Fiery but peaceful protests, right? Or, the correct, non-orwellian term: violent riots.
- godelski 6y ago
  Surprised? No. Trying to not make a left or right comment? Yes.
  - slg 6y ago
    Fair enough. I would have liked if the state shouldn't use violence punitively was just an American stance rather than a left or right one.
    - frabbit 6y ago
      Honestly this seems like a bonkers denial of reality: the State is exactly the embodiment of the use and monopoly of violence. Pretending otherwise is ignoring hundreds of years of empirical data.
      - slg 6y ago
        We aren't denying or even objecting to the state's monopoly on violence. The problem is the word "punitive" there. State violence should be a means to stop other violence. It shouldn't be used as a punishment by itself (beyond more indirect forms of violence such as denying someone's freedom by putting them in prison).
    - godelski 6y ago
      It shouldn't be, and that's why I'm being a bit careful with my language. To normalize that it is in fact a bilateral issue. How to solve it and what to do about, sure, those are left and right opinions. But the fact that it is an issue needs to be normalized, because it is indeed a fact.
    - Simulacra 6y ago
      I wish the state wouldn’t use government agencies putatively, such as the IRS, but they have, and will probably increase.
  - bsanr2 6y ago
    Half the problem is that you've been convinced that this is a left-right issue. It's political, absolutely. But not left-right. Stand up for what's just.
    - godelski 6y ago
      Being careful with my language should not be indicative of believing that it is a left-right issue. Being careful of my language should be indicative that I believe people will interpret it as a left-right position and I'm not here to discuss politics.
      - bsanr2 6y ago
        You're talking about how society should be run and how the state should respond to issues within its purview. That's inherently political. I would say that being careful with one's language to avoid offense is reasonable, if the hypothetical other party's propensity for taking offense is reasonable. Incense at the specter of a political discussion is not reasonable.
        pbourke 6y ago
        Discussions on HN are more interesting when the partisan temperature is turned down.
        bsanr2 6y ago
        A political discussion need not be divisive. Again, it's not good that so many have been convinced that it must be.
    - girvo 6y ago
      Yeah this is more on the other axis. Authoritarianism doesn’t care about left or right.
      - godelski 6y ago
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    It's an oddity of US politics that this is perceived as a left or right issue at all, in that one 'side' seems to have adopted the stance that police should be allowed do pretty much anything with no repercussions or meaningful oversight. Outside the lunatic far-right, this sort of thing would be condemned from all sides in many developed democracies.
    - UncleOxidant 6y ago
      Exactly. I can recall when the right was all upset about Ruby Ridge and Waco. Now that it's people they perceive to be their enemies being punished they're cool with it.
      - notmarkus 6y ago
        Who on the "right" is cool with this? Genuinely asking.
        ojnabieoot 6y ago
        The police (and their unions, and civilian voters with authoritarian pro-police ideologies) are a major political constituency on the right, one that Donald Trump had repeatedly pandered to (because he is a pro-police authoritarian). It is beyond naive to pretend “unaccountable police violence is good” isn’t a mainstream right-wing belief in 2020. > When you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just seen them thrown in, rough. I said, ‘Please don’t be too nice.’ [Trump, July 2017] > If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you?Seriously, OK? Just knock the hell — I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. I promise. They won’t be so much, because the courts agree with us too — what’s going on in this country? [Trump, July 2016] > “Sometimes they grab one guy, ‘I’m a reporter! I’m a reporter!” ...they threw him aside like he was a little bag of popcorn.” [Trump, September 2020, clearly mocking the reporter in context] So the people on the “right” who are cool with this are basically every Republican official and about 70m Americans who voted for Trump last month. Seems like a lot of people!
  - 0x445442 6y ago
    If you weren’t trying to make a left or right comment why use the word “right”?
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
It’s obviously not the case, just a silly take. Do we really think “the state” is involved in telling police how to do their raids? Like DeSantis walked in to their planning meeting said to be extra mean, just to teach her a lesson?
knaq 6y ago
The case the right cares about is Roger Stone. He's an old man, no threat to anybody, who was involved in normal legal proceedings. Somebody decided to make an example out of him. He got a heavily-armed pre-dawn raid, and CNN was right there to watch.
jokethrowaway 6y ago
Left and right are meaningless terms. I'm on the right side economically but I'm fiercely anti authoritarian and I find this terrible. I don't like the "peaceful protests" because it's just destruction of private property but I hope they can create enough momentum to push for the privatisation of police. Some BLM leader in NY was organising something like that, a militia to defend their people. I speculate this is also why people like Kyle Rittenhouse were defending people in the protests despite not agreeing with the violence (before being identified as not part of the violent mob and attacked). Incidentally I don't think police privatisation is going to happen, even under a Biden presidency, because that would remove power from the government and neither democrats nor conservatives are happy with that.

vmception 6y ago

Then we should sanction the whole state for minor infractions of one officer. Municipal bond offerings are currently exempt from SEC registration and disclosures, we can get the federal government to change that upon evidence of small infractions and force an extremely high level of disclosures such as policing statistics for the next 10 years if the municipality wants to raise capital. This beats activist's state-level FOIA requests. It doesn't harm the ability of an officer to make split second decisions and get home safely, which is usually their argument against any proposal. It doesn't require a whole civil suit or criminal suit for anything to happen. Just gets the message across that actions have consequences. It lets them run out of excuses so their real thoughts can be made as clear as day.

op00to 6y ago
yeah but then you make the cops sad cause they can't be shitheels anymore. so that's out.
jokethrowaway 6y ago
There are sanctions but I think it doesn't practically work because the government is responsible for punishing his people. I think we need private police, subject to the same law as anyone else, and third party arbitration in private courts when something happens.