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Author here: I think this reply and the reply by AnthonyMouse in another sub-thread [1] nail it. I'd also add that just because you don't want to buy Chinese p

Author here: I think this reply and the reply by AnthonyMouse in another sub-thread [1] nail it. I'd also add that just because you don't want to buy Chinese products != Buy USA made products. There are a vast number of other countries that would jump at the notion of becoming your supply chain, and don't necessarily have all the ethical grievances of supporting China. I actually think my main objection though had nothing to do with "buying Chinese goods" vs. "not buying Chinese goods." Mainly: why would you buy a $2k smartphone that is grossly overpriced and isn't really providing much more than the base model? As the above comment here says, it should really be closer to "few screws inserted in USA" than "Made in USA." [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25339390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25339390

db579 6y ago
Because you have to start somewhere and by paying $2k today for a few screws inserted in the USA you hopefully prove the demand for full manufacturing to be supplied in the USA. And hopefully not just in the USA, centralising the entire worlds manufacturing capacity in one region is not particularly anti-fragile.
- ThatGeoGuy 6y ago
  The problem is scale though. The market today for the Librem 5 is... a handful of Linux nerds and privacy purists? It seems fine as a statement piece if you're a big company willing to put your wallet on the line, it means a lot less if you're Purism and you need to stay focused in order to do it. And I will argue again: you could probably do this for vastly cheaper than $1999 even in the States. If anything it hurts this more, since people will look at this as an example and say, "Well, I'm not paying $2000 for something like that, guess USA manufacturing is dead since they can't produce good hardware at reasonable prices."
  - db579 6y ago
    It's only ~2.5x the cost of the Made in China version. I'm intrigued that you think it could be done for less? Given that no one currently is and that the average salary in the US appears to be about double the average in China - that seems about right?
    - baybal2 6y ago
      > Given that no one currently is and that the average salary in the US appears to be about double the average in China - that seems about right? An experienced factory worker (5-7+ years) with professional training, certifications, and clean track record costs at least 15k CNY a month in salary, and 6-10k more in pension/insurance/other social payments. Factory workers in US get how much now? > An early career Factory Worker with 1-4 years of experience earns an average total compensation of $13.28 based on 228 salaries. A mid-career Factory Worker with 5-9 years of experience earns an average total compensation of $14.17 based on 91 salaries.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        Wow. I'm really surprised it got anywhere near that close.
      - catherd 6y ago
        Where are those numbers coming from? A line manager working near a top city might get that... that's about the same as an engineer with a couple years experience makes. A high level engineer might expect 30k per month. Foxconn pays about 12k per month for non-technical managers with 3-5 years experience. If you are a technician who assembles parts you are probably getting a salary between 3500 - 8000 RMB per month (+ social insurance payments if you work for a nicer/bigger employer). Maybe as much as 12,000 if you have advanced skills, but usually at that point you would be managing people as well.
        baybal2 6y ago
        US ones from there: https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Factory_Worker/Hourly_Rate https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Factory_Worker/Hour... Chinese, from my own knowledge of contract manufacturing. While saying this, I mean that it is not necessarily that all of workers are hired at such seniority level, and, yes, most of them will be seniormost workers on their line. Foxconn, Flextronics, Pegatron — those companies are completely out of this league, they focus on the bottom line only, and do not work in markets where professional staff on the line matters. One of our own manufacturing contractors who specialises on things including automotive assemblies for Germans (they did some of the new S-Klasse electronics,) and medical devices has such workers, and they do go through all the problem retaining them. Out of other high end contract manufacturers, GoerTek had particularly good prices, and quality level despite them being somewhat volume oriented, but shame, they dropped all non-audio business as of late. Same was for LuxShare, after they got Apple's business, it became impossible to get through to them. Some companies with own manufacturing also been known for well paid line workforce, BuBuGao, and Huawei instantly come to mind.
fsflover 6y ago
> As the above comment here says, it should really be closer to "few screws inserted in USA" than "Made in USA." This is simply wrong: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/. Mainboard PCB, Mainboard PCBA, Electronics, Modem PCB etc. are produced in USA. All Purism devices are assembled in USA, but this one is actually made in USA.

db579 6y ago

Because you have to start somewhere and by paying $2k today for a few screws inserted in the USA you hopefully prove the demand for full manufacturing to be supplied in the USA. And hopefully not just in the USA, centralising the entire worlds manufacturing capacity in one region is not particularly anti-fragile.

ThatGeoGuy 6y ago
The problem is scale though. The market today for the Librem 5 is... a handful of Linux nerds and privacy purists? It seems fine as a statement piece if you're a big company willing to put your wallet on the line, it means a lot less if you're Purism and you need to stay focused in order to do it. And I will argue again: you could probably do this for vastly cheaper than $1999 even in the States. If anything it hurts this more, since people will look at this as an example and say, "Well, I'm not paying $2000 for something like that, guess USA manufacturing is dead since they can't produce good hardware at reasonable prices."
- db579 6y ago
  It's only ~2.5x the cost of the Made in China version. I'm intrigued that you think it could be done for less? Given that no one currently is and that the average salary in the US appears to be about double the average in China - that seems about right?
  - baybal2 6y ago
    > Given that no one currently is and that the average salary in the US appears to be about double the average in China - that seems about right? An experienced factory worker (5-7+ years) with professional training, certifications, and clean track record costs at least 15k CNY a month in salary, and 6-10k more in pension/insurance/other social payments. Factory workers in US get how much now? > An early career Factory Worker with 1-4 years of experience earns an average total compensation of $13.28 based on 228 salaries. A mid-career Factory Worker with 5-9 years of experience earns an average total compensation of $14.17 based on 91 salaries.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Wow. I'm really surprised it got anywhere near that close.
    - catherd 6y ago
      Where are those numbers coming from? A line manager working near a top city might get that... that's about the same as an engineer with a couple years experience makes. A high level engineer might expect 30k per month. Foxconn pays about 12k per month for non-technical managers with 3-5 years experience. If you are a technician who assembles parts you are probably getting a salary between 3500 - 8000 RMB per month (+ social insurance payments if you work for a nicer/bigger employer). Maybe as much as 12,000 if you have advanced skills, but usually at that point you would be managing people as well.
      - baybal2 6y ago
        US ones from there: https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Factory_Worker/Hourly_Rate https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Factory_Worker/Hour... Chinese, from my own knowledge of contract manufacturing. While saying this, I mean that it is not necessarily that all of workers are hired at such seniority level, and, yes, most of them will be seniormost workers on their line. Foxconn, Flextronics, Pegatron — those companies are completely out of this league, they focus on the bottom line only, and do not work in markets where professional staff on the line matters. One of our own manufacturing contractors who specialises on things including automotive assemblies for Germans (they did some of the new S-Klasse electronics,) and medical devices has such workers, and they do go through all the problem retaining them. Out of other high end contract manufacturers, GoerTek had particularly good prices, and quality level despite them being somewhat volume oriented, but shame, they dropped all non-audio business as of late. Same was for LuxShare, after they got Apple's business, it became impossible to get through to them. Some companies with own manufacturing also been known for well paid line workforce, BuBuGao, and Huawei instantly come to mind.

fsflover 6y ago

> As the above comment here says, it should really be closer to "few screws inserted in USA" than "Made in USA." This is simply wrong: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/. Mainboard PCB, Mainboard PCBA, Electronics, Modem PCB etc. are produced in USA. All Purism devices are assembled in USA, but this one is actually made in USA.