11 ms·

In the last 10-15 years San Francisco gained a ton of residents that didn't want to be there at all. They moved there because the job opportunities in tech were

by habosa 6y ago

In the last 10-15 years San Francisco gained a ton of residents that didn't want to be there at all. They moved there because the job opportunities in tech were too hard to turn down. I had some friends like this, they just never really liked the city. Now they're all leaving because their job is not making them stay. That's fine and I'm happy they have more choices now. But there's a flip side to that. One of my least favorite part of San Francisco was actually that group of people! I loved SF and I was always bothered by the constant complaining by tech workers who were there semi-involuntarily. They weren't willing to give the city a chance and instead always wanted to change it to be more bland or more like somewhere else. If a bunch of those people are now leaving and the rent is dropping a bit, all of a sudden I really want to come back. I also think the city will be easier to govern if more of the residents are there because it's where they actually want to live. (Note: I was in SF for 6 years, left just before the pandemic for a temporary assignment in London)

dpeck 6y ago
I think most bigger cities have this same set of people, though I would guess SF has it more. I’ve certainly experienced it in Atlanta, and from former coworkers in Chicago/NYC/Boston as well. There are a lot of people who will complain incessantly about the place they live, and how it’s not as good as some other place. A lot of those folks aren’t going to find happiness with their move but some will. The grass is always greener until you’re standing on it.
tempsy 6y ago
This story is insanely misleading though. Everyone here is talking about why the tech elite are leaving due to the quality of life when Keith Rabois specifically has like 3-4 IPOs he was an early investor in going public right now and makes no sense to stay in California in 2021 and pay state capital gains taxes on those sales. Same with Elon Musk and Tesla’s absurd stock price. And probably a lot of other people given the hot IPO market. Point is it’s so disingenuous for these people to say it’s because of SF or California when it has everything to do with taxes and not much else. To blast the Bay Area and state which made them rich and then flee before they owe a penny is gross.
- PopeDotNinja 6y ago
  I think you’re echoing OP’s point. Some people come to California for opportunity, and when they find enough success, they leave. They’re not CA natives, they’re expats from places with less opportunity and crappier weather. People who want to live in California view the taxes as a cost of enjoying California.
  - tempsy 6y ago
    No my main point is that people on here are reading into Rabois’ comments on quality of life issues at face value and not recognizing that his move out of state at this moment in time has to do with avoiding taxes on his IPO gains and not much else.
    - sampsonitify 6y ago
      How do taxes work in the US? I find it so complicated! So California has their own state Capital gains tax? How much is that?
      - rmah 6y ago
        In summary, for normal people, taxes in the US come at federal, state and local levels. 1. Federal: a) Income tax of 10% on income over around $12k (single) or $24k (married) up to 37% on income over $518k (single) to $622k (married). Capital gains tax is at the same rate for assets held less than a year but up to only 20% for assets held more than one year. b) FICA, a wage tax. You pay for 7.65% for social security and medicare/medicaid on all wages up to around $133k and 0% above that. 2) State. This varies widely. Some states have no income tax, some states have income tax rates of as high as 13.3% (California). Most are around 5%. Each state has different deductions and rules. Capital gains is usually included in this. Most states (but not all) also levy a sales tax of around 4% to 8% on retail transactions. 3) Local. Most local taxes are in the form of property tax on real estate. The rates vary from around 0.5% to 2% of property value. Some towns levy a separate sales tax on top of a state one (if it exists). The real estate and sales taxes are used to fund schools, police, fire, etc. Many municipalities also levy fees for water, trash, etc. Some cities also have an income tax (for example NYC). To give you an idea of just how complex it is, the US has approximately 11,000 different sales tax jurisdictions. And it's not just a matter of rates. What is taxed and in what context varies. For example, in NYC, food from groceries is not subject to sales tax. But food from restaurants is. Unless, I think the restaurant has no more than some minimum of seats and you orders your food to go. Some sales taxes can also vary by date (i.e. sales tax during summer, but otherwise none). There are also occasional sales tax "holidays" where no sales tax is charged. Unsurprisingly, tax lawyers and accountants make good money in the USA :-)
nostrademons 6y ago
I moved out to Silicon Valley in 2009. Downturns are the best years. They flush out all the folks who are hoping to get rich fast by peddling snake oil, and leave behind the folks who are building, who are inventing, who are a little bit weird, or who just love the beautiful weather. The next tech boom starts when somebody finds a crazy invention useful; that's a lot easier when people are living ordinary lives than when everybody's chasing a hot fad.
- jariel 6y ago
  I'm sorry but I find this to be a slightly myopic narrative, and a little naive. Con artists can have a long view of things. And most people who move are just regular people who lost their jobs. Frankly, I don't think there's too much space between 'get rich quick' and 'get really rich over a longer period' people.
mokkos 6y ago
I’ve lived in SF for 11 years now and it feels like city is mostly full of people who actually want to be here now. Even in covid times, I feel like there’s a better sense of community and civic engagement with neighbors. I also was super annoyed by people who came to SF that said it’s not diverse, when it was them not exploring outside of the tech world. All anecdotal, but life in the city is actually kinda awesome despite covid, but I do miss bigger hangouts than just a small social circle, which isn’t allowed anymore even.
- pvarangot 6y ago
  I've lived in SF for two years now. I _choose_ to live in SF, at 34, and I commute to south bay for my job, with a bit more WFH now than before COVID but I sometimes still commute. I don't want to get into details but the other thing I like about the people staying in SF because they chose to is a healthy disregard for authority together with a very smart sense about how to take care of themselves and others. It's saving me from terrible depression or going into complete isolation in COVID times.
opportune 6y ago
The thing is, the SFBA while everything is closed down/restricted is not the same as during a regular economic downturn when you can still go out to eat and socialize. For all the faults I take issue with, the SFBA is probably the single place I most fit in culturally in the world. It’s where I want to be. But I can’t justify paying the absurd rents to live there when my job doesn’t require me to be there AND socialization/networking/most leisure activities are on pause. After March there was nothing for me to do except enjoy nature activities/exercise outside, and my social life was in shambles. I can’t wait for everything to go back to normal and move back to the Bay Area, but for now I am very happy I moved back in with my parents.
- bcrosby95 6y ago
  I grew up in the SFBA and the absurd housing prices make me sad. I would have loved to stay but it just made no sense. I left about 5 years ago to move to SoCal where I can actually afford a house in a school district that doesn't completely suck. I paid 600k which is still a lot - but if I wanted an equivalent up north it would have been over 1 mil.
greensquirrel 6y ago
> they just never really liked the city. Pretty hard to like a city where a non-trivial portion of the residents are hating on you and blaming you and others like you for many problems of their own doing. I left a year ago and I personally hope both San Francisco and all of California suffers fiscal collapse. The state grossly mistreats it's most productive citizens, when its those very citizens that fund the greatest chunk of the state's largesse. Hopefully enough major taxpayers will leave that it creates a fiscal crisis that can only be solved by increasing taxes further, driving more productive citizens out and sending the state government in a death spiral. You'd be bitter too if you paid several hundred thousand in state taxes in 2019 to a state whose politicians probably at least halved your net worth by using your company as their whipping boy for years just to make themselves look good.
- BobbyJo 6y ago
  I can echo this. I loved the bay when I first moved here 8 years ago, but the political dynamic of the area, and the ever growing drug/homelessness crisis said dynamic is completely unable to deal with, both have just worn my enthusiasm away.
  - 8ytecoder 6y ago
    Not all tech employees wanted to live in SF and commute for 4 hours a day. Cities like Palo Alto and Mountain View had severe restrictions on building housing. So SF, Oakland and San Jose took the burden of housing the techies. Naturally people here got angry. But instead of focusing the anger in solving problems it was extremely common for people I meet to loudly complain about tech workers - bars, parties, nextdoor and side walks were full of hate messages. I left the city 3 years ago and I completely understand how frustrating it is.
  - DSingularity 6y ago
    It is unbecoming to point at the homeless and blame them for making our cities unattractive. These are human beings with souls and emotions. When they make us feel uncomfortable with their appearance or behavior we should remember they lead lives where they are likely suffering most of every day. We as a people have failed to create a society with space for these people to exist in peace, happiness, and good health. Now we can’t let ourselves conveniently overlook their humanity due to the inconvenience their state creates for us as a whole.
Dig1t 6y ago
You literally described my life perfectly, I was one of those people. I hated living there and was so glad to leave as soon as my job allowed it. I just really hope they don't make me go back after all this is over, though I have a feeling they will :/ The Bay Area is beautiful and the people are wonderful, but its just not where I want to be living my life.
bryanrasmussen 6y ago
I haven't live in SF since the mid-90s but what are the complaints? From my viewpoint it's easily in the top 10 places to live in the U.S, so unless people are coming from one of the other places or have a particular overwhelming interest like 'sunny weather all the time' I don't know what the complaints would actually be.
vacheron 6y ago
> They weren't willing to give the city a chance and instead always wanted to change it to be more bland or more like somewhere else. I've found this statement to be the complete opposite for myself and many SFBA migrants. I came to the SFBA without too many expectations, but found the city to be an extremely boring place. If you're young and single, the night life is depressing. Hiking and outdoorsy activities are good, but many other cities do it better. SF is the only place where anything actually happens, and the surrounding Bay Area just seems completely devoid of life. This isn't even to mention the homelessness problems within the city. I haven't seen the situation improve at all over the past 5+ years despite effectively paying half of my gross income to taxes. If you complain about it, people will just tell you to "donate money then bub" as if the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars we pay to the state every year isn't expected to make a difference. I gave SF a chance. Been everywhere worth going, done most major hikes, even expanded my interests and hobbies. I've lived in over 6 US cities now (and a few Canadian and European cities) and SF is both the least interesting and the least comfortable to live in.

by habosa 6y ago

dpeck 6y ago

I think most bigger cities have this same set of people, though I would guess SF has it more. I’ve certainly experienced it in Atlanta, and from former coworkers in Chicago/NYC/Boston as well. There are a lot of people who will complain incessantly about the place they live, and how it’s not as good as some other place. A lot of those folks aren’t going to find happiness with their move but some will. The grass is always greener until you’re standing on it.

tempsy 6y ago

This story is insanely misleading though. Everyone here is talking about why the tech elite are leaving due to the quality of life when Keith Rabois specifically has like 3-4 IPOs he was an early investor in going public right now and makes no sense to stay in California in 2021 and pay state capital gains taxes on those sales. Same with Elon Musk and Tesla’s absurd stock price. And probably a lot of other people given the hot IPO market. Point is it’s so disingenuous for these people to say it’s because of SF or California when it has everything to do with taxes and not much else. To blast the Bay Area and state which made them rich and then flee before they owe a penny is gross.

PopeDotNinja 6y ago
I think you’re echoing OP’s point. Some people come to California for opportunity, and when they find enough success, they leave. They’re not CA natives, they’re expats from places with less opportunity and crappier weather. People who want to live in California view the taxes as a cost of enjoying California.
- tempsy 6y ago
  No my main point is that people on here are reading into Rabois’ comments on quality of life issues at face value and not recognizing that his move out of state at this moment in time has to do with avoiding taxes on his IPO gains and not much else.
  - sampsonitify 6y ago
    How do taxes work in the US? I find it so complicated! So California has their own state Capital gains tax? How much is that?
    - rmah 6y ago
      In summary, for normal people, taxes in the US come at federal, state and local levels. 1. Federal: a) Income tax of 10% on income over around $12k (single) or $24k (married) up to 37% on income over $518k (single) to $622k (married). Capital gains tax is at the same rate for assets held less than a year but up to only 20% for assets held more than one year. b) FICA, a wage tax. You pay for 7.65% for social security and medicare/medicaid on all wages up to around $133k and 0% above that. 2) State. This varies widely. Some states have no income tax, some states have income tax rates of as high as 13.3% (California). Most are around 5%. Each state has different deductions and rules. Capital gains is usually included in this. Most states (but not all) also levy a sales tax of around 4% to 8% on retail transactions. 3) Local. Most local taxes are in the form of property tax on real estate. The rates vary from around 0.5% to 2% of property value. Some towns levy a separate sales tax on top of a state one (if it exists). The real estate and sales taxes are used to fund schools, police, fire, etc. Many municipalities also levy fees for water, trash, etc. Some cities also have an income tax (for example NYC). To give you an idea of just how complex it is, the US has approximately 11,000 different sales tax jurisdictions. And it's not just a matter of rates. What is taxed and in what context varies. For example, in NYC, food from groceries is not subject to sales tax. But food from restaurants is. Unless, I think the restaurant has no more than some minimum of seats and you orders your food to go. Some sales taxes can also vary by date (i.e. sales tax during summer, but otherwise none). There are also occasional sales tax "holidays" where no sales tax is charged. Unsurprisingly, tax lawyers and accountants make good money in the USA :-)

nostrademons 6y ago

I moved out to Silicon Valley in 2009. Downturns are the best years. They flush out all the folks who are hoping to get rich fast by peddling snake oil, and leave behind the folks who are building, who are inventing, who are a little bit weird, or who just love the beautiful weather. The next tech boom starts when somebody finds a crazy invention useful; that's a lot easier when people are living ordinary lives than when everybody's chasing a hot fad.

jariel 6y ago
I'm sorry but I find this to be a slightly myopic narrative, and a little naive. Con artists can have a long view of things. And most people who move are just regular people who lost their jobs. Frankly, I don't think there's too much space between 'get rich quick' and 'get really rich over a longer period' people.

mokkos 6y ago

I’ve lived in SF for 11 years now and it feels like city is mostly full of people who actually want to be here now. Even in covid times, I feel like there’s a better sense of community and civic engagement with neighbors. I also was super annoyed by people who came to SF that said it’s not diverse, when it was them not exploring outside of the tech world. All anecdotal, but life in the city is actually kinda awesome despite covid, but I do miss bigger hangouts than just a small social circle, which isn’t allowed anymore even.

pvarangot 6y ago
I've lived in SF for two years now. I _choose_ to live in SF, at 34, and I commute to south bay for my job, with a bit more WFH now than before COVID but I sometimes still commute. I don't want to get into details but the other thing I like about the people staying in SF because they chose to is a healthy disregard for authority together with a very smart sense about how to take care of themselves and others. It's saving me from terrible depression or going into complete isolation in COVID times.

opportune 6y ago

The thing is, the SFBA while everything is closed down/restricted is not the same as during a regular economic downturn when you can still go out to eat and socialize. For all the faults I take issue with, the SFBA is probably the single place I most fit in culturally in the world. It’s where I want to be. But I can’t justify paying the absurd rents to live there when my job doesn’t require me to be there AND socialization/networking/most leisure activities are on pause. After March there was nothing for me to do except enjoy nature activities/exercise outside, and my social life was in shambles. I can’t wait for everything to go back to normal and move back to the Bay Area, but for now I am very happy I moved back in with my parents.

bcrosby95 6y ago
I grew up in the SFBA and the absurd housing prices make me sad. I would have loved to stay but it just made no sense. I left about 5 years ago to move to SoCal where I can actually afford a house in a school district that doesn't completely suck. I paid 600k which is still a lot - but if I wanted an equivalent up north it would have been over 1 mil.

greensquirrel 6y ago

> they just never really liked the city. Pretty hard to like a city where a non-trivial portion of the residents are hating on you and blaming you and others like you for many problems of their own doing. I left a year ago and I personally hope both San Francisco and all of California suffers fiscal collapse. The state grossly mistreats it's most productive citizens, when its those very citizens that fund the greatest chunk of the state's largesse. Hopefully enough major taxpayers will leave that it creates a fiscal crisis that can only be solved by increasing taxes further, driving more productive citizens out and sending the state government in a death spiral. You'd be bitter too if you paid several hundred thousand in state taxes in 2019 to a state whose politicians probably at least halved your net worth by using your company as their whipping boy for years just to make themselves look good.

BobbyJo 6y ago
I can echo this. I loved the bay when I first moved here 8 years ago, but the political dynamic of the area, and the ever growing drug/homelessness crisis said dynamic is completely unable to deal with, both have just worn my enthusiasm away.
- 8ytecoder 6y ago
  Not all tech employees wanted to live in SF and commute for 4 hours a day. Cities like Palo Alto and Mountain View had severe restrictions on building housing. So SF, Oakland and San Jose took the burden of housing the techies. Naturally people here got angry. But instead of focusing the anger in solving problems it was extremely common for people I meet to loudly complain about tech workers - bars, parties, nextdoor and side walks were full of hate messages. I left the city 3 years ago and I completely understand how frustrating it is.
- DSingularity 6y ago
  It is unbecoming to point at the homeless and blame them for making our cities unattractive. These are human beings with souls and emotions. When they make us feel uncomfortable with their appearance or behavior we should remember they lead lives where they are likely suffering most of every day. We as a people have failed to create a society with space for these people to exist in peace, happiness, and good health. Now we can’t let ourselves conveniently overlook their humanity due to the inconvenience their state creates for us as a whole.

Dig1t 6y ago

You literally described my life perfectly, I was one of those people. I hated living there and was so glad to leave as soon as my job allowed it. I just really hope they don't make me go back after all this is over, though I have a feeling they will :/ The Bay Area is beautiful and the people are wonderful, but its just not where I want to be living my life.

bryanrasmussen 6y ago

I haven't live in SF since the mid-90s but what are the complaints? From my viewpoint it's easily in the top 10 places to live in the U.S, so unless people are coming from one of the other places or have a particular overwhelming interest like 'sunny weather all the time' I don't know what the complaints would actually be.

vacheron 6y ago

> They weren't willing to give the city a chance and instead always wanted to change it to be more bland or more like somewhere else. I've found this statement to be the complete opposite for myself and many SFBA migrants. I came to the SFBA without too many expectations, but found the city to be an extremely boring place. If you're young and single, the night life is depressing. Hiking and outdoorsy activities are good, but many other cities do it better. SF is the only place where anything actually happens, and the surrounding Bay Area just seems completely devoid of life. This isn't even to mention the homelessness problems within the city. I haven't seen the situation improve at all over the past 5+ years despite effectively paying half of my gross income to taxes. If you complain about it, people will just tell you to "donate money then bub" as if the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars we pay to the state every year isn't expected to make a difference. I gave SF a chance. Been everywhere worth going, done most major hikes, even expanded my interests and hobbies. I've lived in over 6 US cities now (and a few Canadian and European cities) and SF is both the least interesting and the least comfortable to live in.