5 ms·

If someone says "if you don't fix this thing I will look for work elsewhere" that doesn't mean that you can say "I accept your resignation." If you want that pe

by shkkmo 6y ago

If someone says "if you don't fix this thing I will look for work elsewhere" that doesn't mean that you can say "I accept your resignation." If you want that person gone immediately, you have to fire them.

tantalor 6y ago
The following are equivalent: - I will look for work elsewhere - I will work on a last date - My last date is <X> - This job isn't working out - I don't want to work here anymore - I offer my resignation - I quit
- shkkmo 6y ago
  Legally speaking, that is not true at all. Edit: if you say "I don't want to work here anymore." And you get your "resignation date moved up" you still get your unemployment benefits because you were fired.
  - BeetleB 6y ago
    > if you say "I don't want to work here anymore." And you get your "resignation date moved up" you still get your unemployment benefits because you were fired. I can't speak for California, but in my state, if you are fired and not laid off[1], you don't get unemployment benefits. I've anecdotally heard this is also the case in California. However, I've also heard that many tech companies state they will not dispute unemployment claims when fired (my company certainly says that), so people in these "privileged" companies often do collect unemployment even when fired. [1] I hope people know the difference.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      In California and other states fired just means it was against the employee's will. Employees fired for misconduct don't get unemployment benefits.
    - ohwaitnvm 6y ago
      I think there is a term in California - fired “with cause” - but I’m not sure if that has bearing on unemployment eligibility.
      - BeetleB 6y ago
        Generally, if you are fired for poor performance, or poor conduct, you are not eligible for unemployment benefits. If the company is eliminating your position or downsizing, then you are. There might be specific criteria that needs to be met for each, so details matter. My guess is the reason my employer does not dispute unemployment claims is they've calculated that the cost to dispute them exceeds the amount they expect their unemployment insurance contributions to go up.
    - itsdrewmiller 6y ago
      This is hard to believe - which state are you in? Are you confusing "fired" (generally used for any non-layoff termination) with "for cause"?
- KittenInABox 6y ago
  I've stated before that I don't want to work at a job without intending to actually leave the job or having a last date. In those cases I was venting and was burnt out. I've even admitted this to managers I could trust to talk about how to unburn me instead of declaring I've 'resigned', because I bring a lot of value to teams I'm on.
  - actuator 6y ago
    I am quite sure you didn't send email to fellow employees asking them to immediately stop work on the projects they were working on. I am assuming that was the red line, I am not a manager but it would have been for me.
    - KittenInABox 6y ago
      That's a completely separate issue as to whether or a set of statements all mean the same thing. I entirely agree that there was serious unprofessional behavior in venting out to a listserv of direct reports. But that doesn't mean all the criticisms laid out are correct, such as "saying X means Y".
    - jrockway 6y ago
      So, that's getting fired for cause, maybe, but not resigning. Google's official story is that she resigned. You have to stretch things pretty far to say that taking an action that might get you fired is the same as resigning. Resigning is handing in your badge and laptop and leaving the building. Getting fired is being called into a 4PM Friday meeting with HR and they escort you from the building afterwards. I am not really even sure how meaningful an email telling your coworkers to stop working on their projects is. It really depends on the tone. When I was at Google, I used the internal social media extensively. I am sure at some point someone said something like "I'm really depressed about how my project is going" and I would reply with something like "You should join my team! I have a req!" That's technically telling someone to stop working on their project, but is a completely acceptable thing to do. Ultimately the exact details matter, and we don't have them.
  - NearAP 6y ago
- abea 6y ago
  Ridiculously untrue. This specific case aside, if you are a manager and see all of these as equivalent statements, it's a pretty clear sign you don't care about your team.
- omgwtfbyobbq 6y ago
  I've never regarded those as equivalent. Some are equivalent to others, but they range from expressing displeasure about your job to flat out quitting.
- VikingCoder 6y ago
  "My last date is <X>, BECAUSE I'M RETIRING." If you immediately fire someone for that, that may be illegal age discrimination. Cheers.
  - tantalor 6y ago
    I didn't say anything about "immediately firing" anybody, cheers.
    - VikingCoder 6y ago
      When someone says "I quit," (which you equated it to) I stop paying their paycheck. What do you do?
- bnj 6y ago
  I'm really struggling to understand why you think these are equivalent
alisonkisk 6y ago
It's fuzzy. If someone in a heated dispute says, "I resign, effective some time in the next month", what do you do? Keep them on until you agree in a date? Even if they give a date like "Dec 31", do you let them keep all their access to sensitive company data, or you lock them out for security's sake and settle the legal and payroll paperwork separately?
- iainmerrick 6y ago
  Easy -- if the contract has a notice period, they go on “gardening leave”. It’s common for this to be specifically covered in contracts. If there’s no notice period (legal only in “at will” states, I believe) then it would seem reasonable to fire them immediately.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    All states are at-will states but not all employment in an at-will state is at-will (at-will states allow and make default at-will terms, but specific employment contracts may still set other terms.)
BeetleB 6y ago
> If someone says "if you don't fix this thing I will look for work elsewhere" that doesn't mean that you can say "I accept your resignation." I think you'll find from a legal standpoint, it does.[1] At least I know that they teach in negotiations courses that any time you make a counteroffer, the original offer is legally null and void. So if I give you an employment offer that is good for 30 days, and you counter the following day with a higher salary, then I legally can say "No, and we will not hire you" (i.e. the 30 days clause became invalid once you gave me a counteroffer). This isn't exactly the same, but we are at least taught to treat it similarly. Also, she didn't merely say "I will look for work elsewhere". She said something to the effect of "Let's meet to decide my end date." There's a significant difference. [1] Although being an at-will job, the legality is rather moot.
- zorpner 6y ago
  > I think you'll find from a legal standpoint, it does. In fact, it specifically does not: https://cuiab.ca.gov/board/precedentdecisions/docs/pb39.pdf https://cuiab.ca.gov/board/precedentdecisions/docs/pb39.pdf
  - GauntletWizard 6y ago
    That’s about whether pay is owed. I’m certain that Google did not simply stop paying her checks, but told her to go home and that the remainder of her employment would be paid out. I suspect that’s enough for the law to agree that she was terminated voluntarily.
    - sjg007 6y ago
      It's pay and also unemployment benefits if necessary.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      You can't be certain unless you handle payroll for Google. A manager told it was effective immediately and mentioned her final paycheck.
  - 6y ago
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
If you ever say something like this and you are fired, you should not be surprised. There’s basically never a reason to do this. If it’s something that your manager can fix, and you’re valued, you wouldn’t use an ultimatum. You’d have enough influence and mutual respect to have a conversation about it. If it’s something they can’t fix, your ultimatum is useless anyway. Otherwise, this is an all-in bet, and you need to be fully committed to leaving before doing it.
torstenvl 6y ago
Yes, actually, it does. That's how the disjunctive "or" works. If I tell Perl to do_the_thing() || die(); then the Perl interpreter is well within its rights to say "Well, doing the thing doesn't work, so I am terminating your script." Indeed, that is what one would expect it to do.

by shkkmo 6y ago

tantalor 6y ago

The following are equivalent: - I will look for work elsewhere - I will work on a last date - My last date is <X> - This job isn't working out - I don't want to work here anymore - I offer my resignation - I quit

shkkmo 6y ago
Legally speaking, that is not true at all. Edit: if you say "I don't want to work here anymore." And you get your "resignation date moved up" you still get your unemployment benefits because you were fired.
- BeetleB 6y ago
  > if you say "I don't want to work here anymore." And you get your "resignation date moved up" you still get your unemployment benefits because you were fired. I can't speak for California, but in my state, if you are fired and not laid off[1], you don't get unemployment benefits. I've anecdotally heard this is also the case in California. However, I've also heard that many tech companies state they will not dispute unemployment claims when fired (my company certainly says that), so people in these "privileged" companies often do collect unemployment even when fired. [1] I hope people know the difference.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    In California and other states fired just means it was against the employee's will. Employees fired for misconduct don't get unemployment benefits.
  - ohwaitnvm 6y ago
    I think there is a term in California - fired “with cause” - but I’m not sure if that has bearing on unemployment eligibility.
    - BeetleB 6y ago
      Generally, if you are fired for poor performance, or poor conduct, you are not eligible for unemployment benefits. If the company is eliminating your position or downsizing, then you are. There might be specific criteria that needs to be met for each, so details matter. My guess is the reason my employer does not dispute unemployment claims is they've calculated that the cost to dispute them exceeds the amount they expect their unemployment insurance contributions to go up.
  - itsdrewmiller 6y ago
    This is hard to believe - which state are you in? Are you confusing "fired" (generally used for any non-layoff termination) with "for cause"?
KittenInABox 6y ago
I've stated before that I don't want to work at a job without intending to actually leave the job or having a last date. In those cases I was venting and was burnt out. I've even admitted this to managers I could trust to talk about how to unburn me instead of declaring I've 'resigned', because I bring a lot of value to teams I'm on.
- actuator 6y ago
  I am quite sure you didn't send email to fellow employees asking them to immediately stop work on the projects they were working on. I am assuming that was the red line, I am not a manager but it would have been for me.
  - KittenInABox 6y ago
    That's a completely separate issue as to whether or a set of statements all mean the same thing. I entirely agree that there was serious unprofessional behavior in venting out to a listserv of direct reports. But that doesn't mean all the criticisms laid out are correct, such as "saying X means Y".
  - jrockway 6y ago
    So, that's getting fired for cause, maybe, but not resigning. Google's official story is that she resigned. You have to stretch things pretty far to say that taking an action that might get you fired is the same as resigning. Resigning is handing in your badge and laptop and leaving the building. Getting fired is being called into a 4PM Friday meeting with HR and they escort you from the building afterwards. I am not really even sure how meaningful an email telling your coworkers to stop working on their projects is. It really depends on the tone. When I was at Google, I used the internal social media extensively. I am sure at some point someone said something like "I'm really depressed about how my project is going" and I would reply with something like "You should join my team! I have a req!" That's technically telling someone to stop working on their project, but is a completely acceptable thing to do. Ultimately the exact details matter, and we don't have them.
- NearAP 6y ago
abea 6y ago
Ridiculously untrue. This specific case aside, if you are a manager and see all of these as equivalent statements, it's a pretty clear sign you don't care about your team.
omgwtfbyobbq 6y ago
I've never regarded those as equivalent. Some are equivalent to others, but they range from expressing displeasure about your job to flat out quitting.
VikingCoder 6y ago
"My last date is <X>, BECAUSE I'M RETIRING." If you immediately fire someone for that, that may be illegal age discrimination. Cheers.
- tantalor 6y ago
  I didn't say anything about "immediately firing" anybody, cheers.
  - VikingCoder 6y ago
    When someone says "I quit," (which you equated it to) I stop paying their paycheck. What do you do?
bnj 6y ago
I'm really struggling to understand why you think these are equivalent

alisonkisk 6y ago

It's fuzzy. If someone in a heated dispute says, "I resign, effective some time in the next month", what do you do? Keep them on until you agree in a date? Even if they give a date like "Dec 31", do you let them keep all their access to sensitive company data, or you lock them out for security's sake and settle the legal and payroll paperwork separately?

iainmerrick 6y ago
Easy -- if the contract has a notice period, they go on “gardening leave”. It’s common for this to be specifically covered in contracts. If there’s no notice period (legal only in “at will” states, I believe) then it would seem reasonable to fire them immediately.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  All states are at-will states but not all employment in an at-will state is at-will (at-will states allow and make default at-will terms, but specific employment contracts may still set other terms.)

BeetleB 6y ago

> If someone says "if you don't fix this thing I will look for work elsewhere" that doesn't mean that you can say "I accept your resignation." I think you'll find from a legal standpoint, it does.[1] At least I know that they teach in negotiations courses that any time you make a counteroffer, the original offer is legally null and void. So if I give you an employment offer that is good for 30 days, and you counter the following day with a higher salary, then I legally can say "No, and we will not hire you" (i.e. the 30 days clause became invalid once you gave me a counteroffer). This isn't exactly the same, but we are at least taught to treat it similarly. Also, she didn't merely say "I will look for work elsewhere". She said something to the effect of "Let's meet to decide my end date." There's a significant difference. [1] Although being an at-will job, the legality is rather moot.

zorpner 6y ago
> I think you'll find from a legal standpoint, it does. In fact, it specifically does not: https://cuiab.ca.gov/board/precedentdecisions/docs/pb39.pdf https://cuiab.ca.gov/board/precedentdecisions/docs/pb39.pdf
- GauntletWizard 6y ago
  That’s about whether pay is owed. I’m certain that Google did not simply stop paying her checks, but told her to go home and that the remainder of her employment would be paid out. I suspect that’s enough for the law to agree that she was terminated voluntarily.
  - sjg007 6y ago
    It's pay and also unemployment benefits if necessary.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    You can't be certain unless you handle payroll for Google. A manager told it was effective immediately and mentioned her final paycheck.
- 6y ago

lawnchair_larry 6y ago

If you ever say something like this and you are fired, you should not be surprised. There’s basically never a reason to do this. If it’s something that your manager can fix, and you’re valued, you wouldn’t use an ultimatum. You’d have enough influence and mutual respect to have a conversation about it. If it’s something they can’t fix, your ultimatum is useless anyway. Otherwise, this is an all-in bet, and you need to be fully committed to leaving before doing it.

torstenvl 6y ago

Yes, actually, it does. That's how the disjunctive "or" works. If I tell Perl to do_the_thing() || die(); then the Perl interpreter is well within its rights to say "Well, doing the thing doesn't work, so I am terminating your script." Indeed, that is what one would expect it to do.