6 ms·

Didn’t she gave an ultimatum? Do this or I resign? And they are like we can’t do this so we consider you terminated?

SCUSKU 6y ago
This tweet [1], seems less like an ultimatum and more of asking for an explanation, which management does not seem willing to provide. [1] https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334900391302098944 https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334900391302098944
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  That's only the conditional part of the ultimatum, not the threat. (the "X" in "Do X, or I'll do Y"). The exact phrasing she used is (probably - IANA employment lawyer) very important. If she said something like "Do X, or I'll have to reconsider if I want to continue working here", that doesn't sound like an ultimatum. But if she said "Do X, or I'm going to quit on December 5th", then that definitely sounds like an ultimatum you're begging the company to take you up on.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  That tweet is the "conditions" part of the ultimatum. The other part was the "consequences" if the conditions are not met (the consequences were that she would resign at a to-be-determined date).
  - throwaway19937 6y ago
    When you threaten to resign the other person may decide they don't want the headache of having you around. She had already sent an email asking other people to stop their work on diversity. It's at best naive to think that Google (or any employer) would give her a few more weeks to lower morale or cause trouble.
shkkmo 6y ago
If someone says "if you don't fix this thing I will look for work elsewhere" that doesn't mean that you can say "I accept your resignation." If you want that person gone immediately, you have to fire them.
- tantalor 6y ago
  The following are equivalent: - I will look for work elsewhere - I will work on a last date - My last date is <X> - This job isn't working out - I don't want to work here anymore - I offer my resignation - I quit
  - shkkmo 6y ago
    Legally speaking, that is not true at all. Edit: if you say "I don't want to work here anymore." And you get your "resignation date moved up" you still get your unemployment benefits because you were fired.
    - BeetleB 6y ago
      > if you say "I don't want to work here anymore." And you get your "resignation date moved up" you still get your unemployment benefits because you were fired. I can't speak for California, but in my state, if you are fired and not laid off[1], you don't get unemployment benefits. I've anecdotally heard this is also the case in California. However, I've also heard that many tech companies state they will not dispute unemployment claims when fired (my company certainly says that), so people in these "privileged" companies often do collect unemployment even when fired. [1] I hope people know the difference.
      - pseudalopex 6y ago
        In California and other states fired just means it was against the employee's will. Employees fired for misconduct don't get unemployment benefits.
      - ohwaitnvm 6y ago
alisonkisk 6y ago
Yes. But they said "we accept your resignation" without waiting to see if she'd follow through on the ultimatum, and without respecting her stated plan to work on an end date.
- alacombe 6y ago
  When you put an ultimatum forward, you must expect being called on it and lose. She got called on it and lost. The least she could do is walk away with some honor and walk her talk. Not only she doesn't even seem to be able to do that, but she keeps playing victim...
  - svrb 6y ago
    And why shouldn't she, given all the internet is lapping it up?
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  AIUI, she is still on the payroll, but has just been restricted from accessing anything. There's no law (at least -in the US) that says that if an employee gives their 2 weeks notice, that you have to let them keep coming in for those 2 weeks. You can just give them 2 weeks of salary and tell them to immediately leave. From one of the leaked emails, it seems like she would have been given her 2 weeks if she hadn't written a rambling screed imploring other employees to stop working on certain projects.
  - worker767424 6y ago
    That'd be smart; you can meet her timeline so it's officially a resignation, but with all the benefits of ending the relationship that day. I've seen people walked out the day they give notice, but I assume they weren't technically fired, and paying out their two weeks is the right thing to do.
- worker767424 6y ago
  > without waiting to see if she'd follow through on the ultimatum Sending an email to your boss saying "I'll resign unless X" is a serious ultimatum. You need to be prepared to not have a job when at the end of it, and you were the one who initiated the process. I'm not too concerned with if she technically should have been given a chance to take it back. Don't send an email threatening to resign, lose your job, then say "actually, I was fired." > and without respecting her stated plan to work on an end date. You don't really want to let an employee already sending inappropriate emails to a wide audience have another week to send more. I've been in a professionally self-destructive place before and I didn't realize it until later. 100% speculation here, but I wouldn't be shocked if she had a death wish and was hoping for some version of this outcome. Could be frustration with work, covid depression, or something else.
sorenjan 6y ago
My uninformed interpretation is that Google wanted her gone and jumped at the first opportunity they got. If they wanted her around I don't think the reasons they've given for letting her go would have been dealbreakers.
- itisit 6y ago
  Ethics work will inherently raise questions that challenge a company's narrative or image. Clearly both employer and employee had conflicting opinions on how to deal with said work. You can portray any large corporation negatively given the right thesis and research. I have the same hunch that this was a long-running contention between the two sides—one side had enough and fired the other; the other side went public to retaliate. Sure, you can add nuance, but I don't think it's much more complicated than that.
- NearAP 6y ago
  Technically speaking, how is that a problem? If your theory is right that Google was looking for a reason to fire her, then she shouldn't have given them a 'legal' one. At the end of the day, it boiled down to - she gave them an ultimatum and they called her bluff (this has nothing to do with whether her reasons were right or wrong; if her reasons were right and she really didn't want believe she could work under such conditions, then the focus of her statement and public debate should be about that and not whether Google fired her or she resigned.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    What makes you think it was a bluff? The debate about her being fired or resigning is a debate about who to believe about what led up to it. People who think she resigned see her saying she was fired as evidence of a victim complex and publicity seeking. People who think she was fired see Google saying she resigned as evidence of unfair treatment and dishonesty.

This tweet [1], seems less like an ultimatum and more of asking for an explanation, which management does not seem willing to provide. [1] https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334900391302098944 https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334900391302098944

oh_sigh 6y ago
That's only the conditional part of the ultimatum, not the threat. (the "X" in "Do X, or I'll do Y"). The exact phrasing she used is (probably - IANA employment lawyer) very important. If she said something like "Do X, or I'll have to reconsider if I want to continue working here", that doesn't sound like an ultimatum. But if she said "Do X, or I'm going to quit on December 5th", then that definitely sounds like an ultimatum you're begging the company to take you up on.
alisonkisk 6y ago
That tweet is the "conditions" part of the ultimatum. The other part was the "consequences" if the conditions are not met (the consequences were that she would resign at a to-be-determined date).
- throwaway19937 6y ago
  When you threaten to resign the other person may decide they don't want the headache of having you around. She had already sent an email asking other people to stop their work on diversity. It's at best naive to think that Google (or any employer) would give her a few more weeks to lower morale or cause trouble.

shkkmo 6y ago

If someone says "if you don't fix this thing I will look for work elsewhere" that doesn't mean that you can say "I accept your resignation." If you want that person gone immediately, you have to fire them.

tantalor 6y ago
The following are equivalent: - I will look for work elsewhere - I will work on a last date - My last date is <X> - This job isn't working out - I don't want to work here anymore - I offer my resignation - I quit
- shkkmo 6y ago
  Legally speaking, that is not true at all. Edit: if you say "I don't want to work here anymore." And you get your "resignation date moved up" you still get your unemployment benefits because you were fired.
  - BeetleB 6y ago
    > if you say "I don't want to work here anymore." And you get your "resignation date moved up" you still get your unemployment benefits because you were fired. I can't speak for California, but in my state, if you are fired and not laid off[1], you don't get unemployment benefits. I've anecdotally heard this is also the case in California. However, I've also heard that many tech companies state they will not dispute unemployment claims when fired (my company certainly says that), so people in these "privileged" companies often do collect unemployment even when fired. [1] I hope people know the difference.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      In California and other states fired just means it was against the employee's will. Employees fired for misconduct don't get unemployment benefits.
    - ohwaitnvm 6y ago

alisonkisk 6y ago

Yes. But they said "we accept your resignation" without waiting to see if she'd follow through on the ultimatum, and without respecting her stated plan to work on an end date.

alacombe 6y ago
When you put an ultimatum forward, you must expect being called on it and lose. She got called on it and lost. The least she could do is walk away with some honor and walk her talk. Not only she doesn't even seem to be able to do that, but she keeps playing victim...
- svrb 6y ago
  And why shouldn't she, given all the internet is lapping it up?
oh_sigh 6y ago
AIUI, she is still on the payroll, but has just been restricted from accessing anything. There's no law (at least -in the US) that says that if an employee gives their 2 weeks notice, that you have to let them keep coming in for those 2 weeks. You can just give them 2 weeks of salary and tell them to immediately leave. From one of the leaked emails, it seems like she would have been given her 2 weeks if she hadn't written a rambling screed imploring other employees to stop working on certain projects.
- worker767424 6y ago
  That'd be smart; you can meet her timeline so it's officially a resignation, but with all the benefits of ending the relationship that day. I've seen people walked out the day they give notice, but I assume they weren't technically fired, and paying out their two weeks is the right thing to do.
worker767424 6y ago
> without waiting to see if she'd follow through on the ultimatum Sending an email to your boss saying "I'll resign unless X" is a serious ultimatum. You need to be prepared to not have a job when at the end of it, and you were the one who initiated the process. I'm not too concerned with if she technically should have been given a chance to take it back. Don't send an email threatening to resign, lose your job, then say "actually, I was fired." > and without respecting her stated plan to work on an end date. You don't really want to let an employee already sending inappropriate emails to a wide audience have another week to send more. I've been in a professionally self-destructive place before and I didn't realize it until later. 100% speculation here, but I wouldn't be shocked if she had a death wish and was hoping for some version of this outcome. Could be frustration with work, covid depression, or something else.

sorenjan 6y ago

My uninformed interpretation is that Google wanted her gone and jumped at the first opportunity they got. If they wanted her around I don't think the reasons they've given for letting her go would have been dealbreakers.

itisit 6y ago
Ethics work will inherently raise questions that challenge a company's narrative or image. Clearly both employer and employee had conflicting opinions on how to deal with said work. You can portray any large corporation negatively given the right thesis and research. I have the same hunch that this was a long-running contention between the two sides—one side had enough and fired the other; the other side went public to retaliate. Sure, you can add nuance, but I don't think it's much more complicated than that.
NearAP 6y ago
Technically speaking, how is that a problem? If your theory is right that Google was looking for a reason to fire her, then she shouldn't have given them a 'legal' one. At the end of the day, it boiled down to - she gave them an ultimatum and they called her bluff (this has nothing to do with whether her reasons were right or wrong; if her reasons were right and she really didn't want believe she could work under such conditions, then the focus of her statement and public debate should be about that and not whether Google fired her or she resigned.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  What makes you think it was a bluff? The debate about her being fired or resigning is a debate about who to believe about what led up to it. People who think she resigned see her saying she was fired as evidence of a victim complex and publicity seeking. People who think she was fired see Google saying she resigned as evidence of unfair treatment and dishonesty.