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The irony is it's the 'fuck off we're full' people that have made CA policy shitty. It's the NIMBY anti-change response to policy. The people that want a stro

The irony is it's the 'fuck off we're full' people that have made CA policy shitty. It's the NIMBY anti-change response to policy. The people that want a strong economy, incentivize building housing, and adapting lead to positive non-zero-sum outcomes. The people that say "fuck off we're full" block any policy and create perverse incentives that create a dysfunctional mess. This is ignoring the selection bias that the people leaving now are probably also the people not interested in CA anti-housing, high-tax policy and would likely be a better fit on these policy issues in Austin than the commenter thinks. Largely I think comments like the one you replied to are just responding to what they see as the enemy tribe in the political culture war.

scottlocklin 6y ago
>Largely I think comments.... Largely I think you're projecting. The reason California is such absolute shit to live in: people who live in California vote for the policies it has. You can't blame anyone else. I left to get away from you people, and would dearly like for you all to stay in the beautiful little paradise you have created. Bringing California problems, whether it be zoning laws, riots, real estate prices, unbreathable air due to foolish politically driven forestry management, water shortages, tent cities, traffic jams, electrical blackouts, people shitting in the streets or whatever charming advancements you may come up with next to Austin, Montana, Kuala Lumpur or Des Moines: you people should be treated as the pariahs you are.
- camjohnson26 6y ago
  I think you just proved their point.
  - fossuser 6y ago
    Not only that, but he himself left California for Austin. He's in the set of people he's complaining about. [Edit: Apparently not Austin, but some other place - point still stands]
    - scottlocklin 6y ago
      I have never lived in Austin. I never will: too many Californians have ruined the place; now they've got skyrocketing housing prices, traffic, homeless tent cities with rivers of human feces and the general high quality of life one can find in other paradisical California shit holes. No doubt they'll find a way to jack the taxes up if enough move to Texas. Very typical of a Palo Alto resident to think the only problem with California is prop-13 or some obscure housing policy or whatever. You can't even breathe the goddamned air in your utopia, the tax rate makes France look reasonable, the highways are designed for 1/4 the population density, the power outages are Zimbabwe tier, riots over ... people saying things, and you think a housing policy adjustment is gonna make it all better? Maybe you should try leaving your $4m bungalo bubble once in a while? Actually, no, stay right there. Enjoy it; you earned it.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > the tax rate makes France look reasonable, France has taxes around 45% of GDP, California has (including all levels, including federal) around 30%, the US as a whole (again, counting all levels) is around 25%. California is one of the higher overall tax jurisdictions in the US, but unless your argument is that the US as a whole has unreasonably low taxes, I don't get how you can say California makes France look reasonable.
        scottlocklin 6y ago
        You obviously don't live in California, don't make enough money to pay taxes, or are just being cussed. The US top end tax rate is 37%, plus California is .... what? 13? You're already up to giving away half of what you make in California. Meanwhile you have to pay taxes on physical property like your house, and your house is valued at 7 figures if you live in the Bay Area. Finally, there was a VAT the last time I lived there. Meaning pretty much everything you buy with your money is also taxed. So yeah. France. Except the wine and everything else is shittier and costs more in California. France also has a functioning social welfare and medical system, and somehow manages to keep the electricity on and the air breathable. Pretty sure the murder rate in France, terrorism and everything, is significantly lower as well. Oh yeah: completely ridiculous criminal things like this basically don't happen as often in France: https://mobile.twitter.com/SFPDTenderloin/status/1334245062780153857 https://mobile.twitter.com/SFPDTenderloin/status/13342450627...
jeffreyrogers 6y ago
My experience living in an area that has high net migration from California is that the people leaving bring California's policies with them.
- fossuser 6y ago
  Anything specific? One guess I'd have is that an influx of new people creates that anti-housing response anywhere which can lead to some of the same problems. I suspect that's less about CA policy and more about bad incentives around housing being an investment in the US. If you mean that most people from CA don't like Trump (or the Republican support/defense of him), then yeah I think you're probably right about that (but that's not really CA policy). A lot of people I work with are more center or center-right than the general narrative about Californians would have you believe, I'd suspect those leaving to be more from that camp.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    It's not anti-housing. It's never anti-housing. Nor is it ever "neighborhood character" or whatever. The places that people are moving to have plenty of land to build. What people don't like is that when upper middle class city and inner suburb types move in local ordinances that restrict what you can and can't do on your own land seem to always follow. And given a generation or so of change in that direction, it gets you the same overpriced, impossible to develop hellscape that those people were seeking to flee in the first place. This isn't unique to CA. Their stupidity isn't special. This pattern has played out all over the east coast and midwest.
  - jeffreyrogers 6y ago
    I wasn't thinking about Trump at all. I don't think he (or any President) is very relevant at a local level, at least not on a short time-frame. The influx of people probably has something to do with it, although in Utah (where I live) there is not much anti-housing response. There is lots of construction going on both in Salt Lake City and in the surrounding areas, and lots of political support for it. The real problems I see are more cultural ones. Homelessness is rising (as it is throughout the US). Utah had handled homelessness much better than other places due to a unique balance between the local government, the police, and the LDS church (I'm not a member FYI), but changes in the mayor and chief of police disrupted that balance. I also perceive an arrogance on the part of some of those moving here. The idea that they can just start changing things without understanding how/why things were the way they were before. I don't think I'm against change--it's impossible to stop it in any case--but I also don't think coastal values are right for every area.
hindsightbias 6y ago
The first "we're full" bumper sticker I ever saw was Austin in 1998. RIP Travis Heights, East Austin. It's not like most of the SFBA fleeing refugees here were natives. They were kids from schools MI, NY, PA, IL and TX. The Menlo Park, Mountain View equivalents entrenched in West Austin are pretty fed up already so we'll see how it all turns out in 5 -10 years as the nextgen 3.0 descend on Silicon Hills.
- chao- 6y ago
  To be fair, y'all did your best to dissuade expansion by intentionally avoiding some infrastructure improvements in the 90's and 00's. But then people came anyway, and it became impossible to ignore forever. This isn't to cast aspersions on either people who were fighting for better transit across those decades, or people who wanted to keep Austin somewhat smaller. Just my observations from across my life, with family/friends in the area, spending good amount of time there each year. The ACT stuff is long-overdue and the new CapMetro Connect project is great. Hopefully it gets funded and built with fewer bumps along the way than Houston's 5-line rail network (which is still sitting at only 3-and-a-half of 5 lines built).
AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
But isn't NIMBYism perfectly natural? I looked around, I found a place I like, to I settled there and I want it to stay this way.

scottlocklin 6y ago

>Largely I think comments.... Largely I think you're projecting. The reason California is such absolute shit to live in: people who live in California vote for the policies it has. You can't blame anyone else. I left to get away from you people, and would dearly like for you all to stay in the beautiful little paradise you have created. Bringing California problems, whether it be zoning laws, riots, real estate prices, unbreathable air due to foolish politically driven forestry management, water shortages, tent cities, traffic jams, electrical blackouts, people shitting in the streets or whatever charming advancements you may come up with next to Austin, Montana, Kuala Lumpur or Des Moines: you people should be treated as the pariahs you are.

camjohnson26 6y ago
I think you just proved their point.
- fossuser 6y ago
  Not only that, but he himself left California for Austin. He's in the set of people he's complaining about. [Edit: Apparently not Austin, but some other place - point still stands]
  - scottlocklin 6y ago
    I have never lived in Austin. I never will: too many Californians have ruined the place; now they've got skyrocketing housing prices, traffic, homeless tent cities with rivers of human feces and the general high quality of life one can find in other paradisical California shit holes. No doubt they'll find a way to jack the taxes up if enough move to Texas. Very typical of a Palo Alto resident to think the only problem with California is prop-13 or some obscure housing policy or whatever. You can't even breathe the goddamned air in your utopia, the tax rate makes France look reasonable, the highways are designed for 1/4 the population density, the power outages are Zimbabwe tier, riots over ... people saying things, and you think a housing policy adjustment is gonna make it all better? Maybe you should try leaving your $4m bungalo bubble once in a while? Actually, no, stay right there. Enjoy it; you earned it.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > the tax rate makes France look reasonable, France has taxes around 45% of GDP, California has (including all levels, including federal) around 30%, the US as a whole (again, counting all levels) is around 25%. California is one of the higher overall tax jurisdictions in the US, but unless your argument is that the US as a whole has unreasonably low taxes, I don't get how you can say California makes France look reasonable.
      - scottlocklin 6y ago
        You obviously don't live in California, don't make enough money to pay taxes, or are just being cussed. The US top end tax rate is 37%, plus California is .... what? 13? You're already up to giving away half of what you make in California. Meanwhile you have to pay taxes on physical property like your house, and your house is valued at 7 figures if you live in the Bay Area. Finally, there was a VAT the last time I lived there. Meaning pretty much everything you buy with your money is also taxed. So yeah. France. Except the wine and everything else is shittier and costs more in California. France also has a functioning social welfare and medical system, and somehow manages to keep the electricity on and the air breathable. Pretty sure the murder rate in France, terrorism and everything, is significantly lower as well. Oh yeah: completely ridiculous criminal things like this basically don't happen as often in France: https://mobile.twitter.com/SFPDTenderloin/status/1334245062780153857 https://mobile.twitter.com/SFPDTenderloin/status/13342450627...

jeffreyrogers 6y ago

My experience living in an area that has high net migration from California is that the people leaving bring California's policies with them.

fossuser 6y ago
Anything specific? One guess I'd have is that an influx of new people creates that anti-housing response anywhere which can lead to some of the same problems. I suspect that's less about CA policy and more about bad incentives around housing being an investment in the US. If you mean that most people from CA don't like Trump (or the Republican support/defense of him), then yeah I think you're probably right about that (but that's not really CA policy). A lot of people I work with are more center or center-right than the general narrative about Californians would have you believe, I'd suspect those leaving to be more from that camp.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  It's not anti-housing. It's never anti-housing. Nor is it ever "neighborhood character" or whatever. The places that people are moving to have plenty of land to build. What people don't like is that when upper middle class city and inner suburb types move in local ordinances that restrict what you can and can't do on your own land seem to always follow. And given a generation or so of change in that direction, it gets you the same overpriced, impossible to develop hellscape that those people were seeking to flee in the first place. This isn't unique to CA. Their stupidity isn't special. This pattern has played out all over the east coast and midwest.
- jeffreyrogers 6y ago
  I wasn't thinking about Trump at all. I don't think he (or any President) is very relevant at a local level, at least not on a short time-frame. The influx of people probably has something to do with it, although in Utah (where I live) there is not much anti-housing response. There is lots of construction going on both in Salt Lake City and in the surrounding areas, and lots of political support for it. The real problems I see are more cultural ones. Homelessness is rising (as it is throughout the US). Utah had handled homelessness much better than other places due to a unique balance between the local government, the police, and the LDS church (I'm not a member FYI), but changes in the mayor and chief of police disrupted that balance. I also perceive an arrogance on the part of some of those moving here. The idea that they can just start changing things without understanding how/why things were the way they were before. I don't think I'm against change--it's impossible to stop it in any case--but I also don't think coastal values are right for every area.

hindsightbias 6y ago

The first "we're full" bumper sticker I ever saw was Austin in 1998. RIP Travis Heights, East Austin. It's not like most of the SFBA fleeing refugees here were natives. They were kids from schools MI, NY, PA, IL and TX. The Menlo Park, Mountain View equivalents entrenched in West Austin are pretty fed up already so we'll see how it all turns out in 5 -10 years as the nextgen 3.0 descend on Silicon Hills.

chao- 6y ago
To be fair, y'all did your best to dissuade expansion by intentionally avoiding some infrastructure improvements in the 90's and 00's. But then people came anyway, and it became impossible to ignore forever. This isn't to cast aspersions on either people who were fighting for better transit across those decades, or people who wanted to keep Austin somewhat smaller. Just my observations from across my life, with family/friends in the area, spending good amount of time there each year. The ACT stuff is long-overdue and the new CapMetro Connect project is great. Hopefully it gets funded and built with fewer bumps along the way than Houston's 5-line rail network (which is still sitting at only 3-and-a-half of 5 lines built).

AlexTWithBeard 6y ago

But isn't NIMBYism perfectly natural? I looked around, I found a place I like, to I settled there and I want it to stay this way.