6 ms·

Not municipalities but the state's labor laws are highly conducive to the tech culture and don't exist most places in the country. There's not much money for th

by qppo 6y ago

Not municipalities but the state's labor laws are highly conducive to the tech culture and don't exist most places in the country. There's not much money for the startup crop that feeds big tech outside the Bay Area. It's all on Sand Hill Road. I can only speak for myself but I'll never live in a red state again. Not even Texas, it's not worth it. Even where I grew up (the purple midwest) is too socially conservative for me after living in California.

gedy 6y ago
Unless you are a political junky reading news all day - what practically speaking is so intolerable about living there or your neighbors?
- renewiltord 6y ago
  It's hard to describe to people who are both White and American. That's not because they're inherently incapable of understanding. It's just a problem you don't face as much so you don't understand it. It's like how for most of my life I barely understood the mitigating measures women take in many situations where I don't even notice the situation.
  - gedy 6y ago
    East Asian family in different parts of Texas are California expats and love it.
    - renewiltord 6y ago
      Yeah, it's not a universal thing¹ but the short version is that one of my friends was told how he was "one of the good guys" and not the kind of immigrant they hate. And another was in sales in industrial manufacturing and there was a lot of misogyny and low-grade racism there. They're in WA now so and much happier. ¹ the "isn't happening to me" thing is sort of analogous to "works on my machine". Because of the range of stuff, things usually do "work on my machine".
      - nitrogen 6y ago
        The immigration issue is more complex than that. I met a guy a long time ago who immigrated illegally, but eventually decided to go legit. He built a fortune in the shipping pallet business, and complained loudly about unfair competition from illegal immigration because those companies could pay sub-living wages and skip out on safety and workers' comp insurance. It's fine to prefer living in one culture over another, which is exactly what both your friend and the people they complained about are doing.
        renewiltord 6y ago
        Certainly. I did not mean to imply a global ordering of places to live. I interpreted the original question "what practically speaking is so intolerable about living there or your neighbors?" as "what ... is so intolerable [for someone who doesn't wish to live there] ...". It is perfectly reasonable that you find it enjoyable to live there and I find it intolerable. I interpreted the question as "why do you find it intolerable" not "why should I find it intolerable" since the latter is harder to answer - I don't know your desire vector and/or moral foundations. And to be clear, I did not mean illegal immigration. I meant legal immigration.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >It's hard to describe to people who are both White and American Many immigrants are even more religious and/or convervative than "White and American". Just of a different culture.
    - renewiltord 6y ago
      Sure, I'm certain it's hard to explain to other groups as well. "White and American" wasn't meant to be exhaustive.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    I'm sure that Midwesterners are super polite to other white people, but it was definitely not my experience there as a minority. I was born in the US but my ethnicity is visually ambiguous and people assume I'm Mexican, Filipino, or Indian (in that order) based on the type of brown person they grew up with. In CA, no one particularly cares what type of brown person I am. But when I lived in Ohio, I was told that I should "go back home where [I] came from", that I'm one of the good ones and should bring more of my family over, or that I'm "stealing jobs from honest Americans," based on whether the redneck in question thought I was Mexican, Filipino, or Indian. My cousin and his wife, in Indiana, used to experience the same harassment regularly until they started wearing their scrubs everywhere so people would know that they're doctors. I turned down a very well-paying job in Ohio (and came back to CA) because the people there were so vile.
- matz1 6y ago
  For me its the stance for Lockdown/restriction - seems to me blue state is more eager to lockdown.
  - 1996 6y ago
    Freedom of movement and assembly is a priceless advantage
- cossatot 6y ago
  I grew up in a small town in the Ozarks and there was a huge amount of fundamentalist Christian propaganda and social conditioning going on in the public school system. The high school principal passed out bibles, prayer was held before many sports practices or events, recruiters/councilors for Christian youth groups sat with the students at the cafeteria at lunch, etc. Some of the science teachers taught science well, though others made it explicit that they were Creationists and were only teaching evolution/Earth science because they had to, and that the students could stick around after class to hear 'what really happened'. This was on top of another layer of class conflict between the middle class teachers/administration and lower class/trailer park kids, who mostly dropped out at 16 which was fine with the admin. Lots of additional pressure on other students who didn't conform for various race/gender/etc. reasons. And then completely bizarre stuff like, though the official reason for not having a soccer team was that it would detract from the sacrosanct football program, many of the teachers were clear that believed soccer to be a Communist sport (this was in the 90s when the cold war was long over). Many of the perpetrators here are very nice people and fine neighbors, but if you aren't an evangelical Christian it can be a challenge. Especially if you're not white: the KKK is still a well known presence just down the road in Harrison, AR, so it's not just woke fearmongering. It's one thing to live in these environments as an adult and be able to blow a lot of it off, but it's another thing completely to have kids there, which really detracts from the 'leave California to raise kids' motivation. And it would be better at a larger city like St. Louis or Indianapolis but some fraction of the population of those places are from towns like mine and don't find these beliefs and practices to be particularly problematic.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    I don't think most places are like this, but moreover, what is the critical difference between the anti-science fundamentalist Christian indoctrination and a anti-science fundamentalist political indoctrination one finds in Silicon Valley? Is it just which one a given individual finds more palatable (subjective) or is one objectively better than the other (and if so, why?)? And in either case, why pick one fringe or the other when there are so many places across the country that are more ideologically diverse and tolerant?
- qppo 6y ago
  Well right now it's personal safety as another comment mentioned. Long term it's because I don't want my kids to grow up around the same people I did. Intolerable is an ironic word because my personal choices cut right to the paradox of tolerance.
- strifey 6y ago
  I grew up in a deeply conservative part of the country. The amount of casual bigotry that permeates even the most mundane social exchanges now shocks me whenever I visit my family. I can't imagine what it's like to be a minority there. Even being a white man who people treat kindly is uncomfortable enough.
AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
With the social changes going on throughout 2020 and beyond, you may want to prepare for SF to go more conservative as the years go on. Things have a way of flipping during times of significance. California's entertainment industry was formed by a bunch of young, driven people who wanted to escape paying IP royalties to the Edison company. Now, they're doing everything in their legal power to pursue their own IP infringement cases, taking on the form and function of their reason for leaving NY in the first place. That NIMBY thing has been boiling over for decades now. There will be new stakeholders in that battle attaching themselves to conservative and far-right movements. Get ready!
throwaway894345 6y ago
Is "the [SV] tech culture" the secret sauce (especially noting that the culture has changed a lot in the intervening 10-20 years)? Could tech companies thrive with a different, more ideologically diverse talent pool?

by qppo 6y ago

gedy 6y ago

Unless you are a political junky reading news all day - what practically speaking is so intolerable about living there or your neighbors?

renewiltord 6y ago
It's hard to describe to people who are both White and American. That's not because they're inherently incapable of understanding. It's just a problem you don't face as much so you don't understand it. It's like how for most of my life I barely understood the mitigating measures women take in many situations where I don't even notice the situation.
- gedy 6y ago
  East Asian family in different parts of Texas are California expats and love it.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    Yeah, it's not a universal thing¹ but the short version is that one of my friends was told how he was "one of the good guys" and not the kind of immigrant they hate. And another was in sales in industrial manufacturing and there was a lot of misogyny and low-grade racism there. They're in WA now so and much happier. ¹ the "isn't happening to me" thing is sort of analogous to "works on my machine". Because of the range of stuff, things usually do "work on my machine".
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      The immigration issue is more complex than that. I met a guy a long time ago who immigrated illegally, but eventually decided to go legit. He built a fortune in the shipping pallet business, and complained loudly about unfair competition from illegal immigration because those companies could pay sub-living wages and skip out on safety and workers' comp insurance. It's fine to prefer living in one culture over another, which is exactly what both your friend and the people they complained about are doing.
      - renewiltord 6y ago
        Certainly. I did not mean to imply a global ordering of places to live. I interpreted the original question "what practically speaking is so intolerable about living there or your neighbors?" as "what ... is so intolerable [for someone who doesn't wish to live there] ...". It is perfectly reasonable that you find it enjoyable to live there and I find it intolerable. I interpreted the question as "why do you find it intolerable" not "why should I find it intolerable" since the latter is harder to answer - I don't know your desire vector and/or moral foundations. And to be clear, I did not mean illegal immigration. I meant legal immigration.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >It's hard to describe to people who are both White and American Many immigrants are even more religious and/or convervative than "White and American". Just of a different culture.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    Sure, I'm certain it's hard to explain to other groups as well. "White and American" wasn't meant to be exhaustive.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  I'm sure that Midwesterners are super polite to other white people, but it was definitely not my experience there as a minority. I was born in the US but my ethnicity is visually ambiguous and people assume I'm Mexican, Filipino, or Indian (in that order) based on the type of brown person they grew up with. In CA, no one particularly cares what type of brown person I am. But when I lived in Ohio, I was told that I should "go back home where [I] came from", that I'm one of the good ones and should bring more of my family over, or that I'm "stealing jobs from honest Americans," based on whether the redneck in question thought I was Mexican, Filipino, or Indian. My cousin and his wife, in Indiana, used to experience the same harassment regularly until they started wearing their scrubs everywhere so people would know that they're doctors. I turned down a very well-paying job in Ohio (and came back to CA) because the people there were so vile.
matz1 6y ago
For me its the stance for Lockdown/restriction - seems to me blue state is more eager to lockdown.
- 1996 6y ago
  Freedom of movement and assembly is a priceless advantage
cossatot 6y ago
I grew up in a small town in the Ozarks and there was a huge amount of fundamentalist Christian propaganda and social conditioning going on in the public school system. The high school principal passed out bibles, prayer was held before many sports practices or events, recruiters/councilors for Christian youth groups sat with the students at the cafeteria at lunch, etc. Some of the science teachers taught science well, though others made it explicit that they were Creationists and were only teaching evolution/Earth science because they had to, and that the students could stick around after class to hear 'what really happened'. This was on top of another layer of class conflict between the middle class teachers/administration and lower class/trailer park kids, who mostly dropped out at 16 which was fine with the admin. Lots of additional pressure on other students who didn't conform for various race/gender/etc. reasons. And then completely bizarre stuff like, though the official reason for not having a soccer team was that it would detract from the sacrosanct football program, many of the teachers were clear that believed soccer to be a Communist sport (this was in the 90s when the cold war was long over). Many of the perpetrators here are very nice people and fine neighbors, but if you aren't an evangelical Christian it can be a challenge. Especially if you're not white: the KKK is still a well known presence just down the road in Harrison, AR, so it's not just woke fearmongering. It's one thing to live in these environments as an adult and be able to blow a lot of it off, but it's another thing completely to have kids there, which really detracts from the 'leave California to raise kids' motivation. And it would be better at a larger city like St. Louis or Indianapolis but some fraction of the population of those places are from towns like mine and don't find these beliefs and practices to be particularly problematic.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  I don't think most places are like this, but moreover, what is the critical difference between the anti-science fundamentalist Christian indoctrination and a anti-science fundamentalist political indoctrination one finds in Silicon Valley? Is it just which one a given individual finds more palatable (subjective) or is one objectively better than the other (and if so, why?)? And in either case, why pick one fringe or the other when there are so many places across the country that are more ideologically diverse and tolerant?
qppo 6y ago
Well right now it's personal safety as another comment mentioned. Long term it's because I don't want my kids to grow up around the same people I did. Intolerable is an ironic word because my personal choices cut right to the paradox of tolerance.
strifey 6y ago
I grew up in a deeply conservative part of the country. The amount of casual bigotry that permeates even the most mundane social exchanges now shocks me whenever I visit my family. I can't imagine what it's like to be a minority there. Even being a white man who people treat kindly is uncomfortable enough.

AndrewUnmuted 6y ago

With the social changes going on throughout 2020 and beyond, you may want to prepare for SF to go more conservative as the years go on. Things have a way of flipping during times of significance. California's entertainment industry was formed by a bunch of young, driven people who wanted to escape paying IP royalties to the Edison company. Now, they're doing everything in their legal power to pursue their own IP infringement cases, taking on the form and function of their reason for leaving NY in the first place. That NIMBY thing has been boiling over for decades now. There will be new stakeholders in that battle attaching themselves to conservative and far-right movements. Get ready!

throwaway894345 6y ago

Is "the [SV] tech culture" the secret sauce (especially noting that the culture has changed a lot in the intervening 10-20 years)? Could tech companies thrive with a different, more ideologically diverse talent pool?