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>And there are good arguments it should be illegal in more[1]. While it's certainly worth debating and discussing, the liberal paradigm in law proscribes that

>And there are good arguments it should be illegal in more[1]. While it's certainly worth debating and discussing, the liberal paradigm in law proscribes that we should only make laws in certain circumstances under specific notions of harm, and the mere risk of harm is not usually sufficient. In addition, it is neither clear that legislation is the route to take, and several feminist critics of porn have tempered their claims and goals. Before even discussing this matter, never mind mentioning legislation, you should be clear on how you define porn and the extent to which the research on porn is consonant with that definition. It's too easy to think that all porn fits in one bucket while today we have everything from hentai to fanfiction to online roleplay to audio recordings to OnlyFans. How much of your literature discusses these forms, and to what extent do the results converge? Porn is surprisingly similar to alcohol, even in terms of its effects, but private sexual autonomy is arguably more important (morally) than the autonomy to consume alcohol. Ana J. Bridges in a review of the scientific literature on the relationship between porn and sexual assault in the Handbook of Sexual Assault and Sexual Assault Prevention concluded that a ban is not warranted[0], but media literacy and other measures have been somewhat promising. [0] http://xyonline.net/sites/xyonline.net/files/2020-07/Bridges%2C%20Pornography%20and%20Sexual%20Assault%202019.pdf http://xyonline.net/sites/xyonline.net/files/2020-07/Bridges...

scottlocklin 6y ago
Oh please; OP was boasting of legalizing porn as some great achievement of his people. It's not a great achievement of his people, nor an inexorable sign of progress. It is at best something marginal, like making slot machines legal so swine like Sheldon Adelson can buy off US politicians instead of scurrying around in criminal back alleys avoiding police where gambling syndicates belong. You're lecturing me on the "liberal paradigm in law" which was somehow invented in the 1960s rather back in the 1700s when the rest of the liberal paradigm was invented by, you know, the philosophers who invented classical liberalism. And great reddit tier red herring about "defining porn." How about "all the filth that the Danes made legal, as OP was boasting about." Is that a clear enough definition for you, or do you want to parse dirty pictures and debate the merits of DH Lawrence books?
- claudiawerner 6y ago
  >You're lecturing me on the "liberal paradigm in law" which was somehow invented in the 1960s rather back in the 1700s when the rest of the liberal paradigm was invented by, you know, the philosophers who invented classical liberalism. The liberal paradigm in law has only relatively recently gained support despite being "invented" long ago - whether we're talking about debate over obscenity laws, gay sex, alcohol, or, indeed, gambling. This is especially true in non-US countries which are not founded on explicitly liberal principles. The 60s saw the L. A. Hart and Patrick Lord Devlin debate on the limits of morality's place in law. >And great reddit tier red herring about "defining porn." Not a red herring at all. I frankly do not trust legislators to possess an accurate or up-to-date understanding of what the relvant literature shows, with what confidence, or explanatory power. I also do not trust the blunt force of the law to limit its scope. The Danes probably made erotic fanfiction legal too. Imagine you're a fanfiction writer, and your craft is illegalized and you're thrown in prison despite the fact that your government could not produce any evidence that your craft causes the harm attributed to other porn. That would be an injustice, and just like the prohibition of alcohol on similar grounds, I can't support it unless we're clear ahead of time what this means for freedom of expression.
  - scottlocklin 6y ago
    > Imagine you're a fanfiction writer.... No, I can't imagine I'm a fanfiction writer because it's a pathetic and awful hobby, and I honest to god don't care about their alleged right to make grubby Mr Spock porn, thus condemning (by your tortuous logic) generations to be subjected to disgusting, degrading and addictive pornography. Imagine being a dope fiend .... yep; still not imagining it. Imagine being a <insert another degenerate and completely non sympathetic category of person> -no thank you! Community decency laws used to work just fine, and I do not see their eradication as an improvement in the over all state of the human race. Just like anti-gambling laws; and gambling is at least not pumped into every household. Every society has a right to chose the levels of degeneracy allowed: necrophilia, prostitution, drug use and bestiality are all victimless crimes as well which should be allowed via your imbecile version of "liberal paradigms." Looking forward to your spirited defence of philip morris brand heroin-addicted prostitutes being voluntarily violated and eaten alive by wild beasts for family viewing on early evening television. Denmark doesn't get to claim "muh cummies" as a great cultural achievement. Not any more than their whorehouses or gambling parlours. Personally I don't think their posturing on environmental virtues will amount to much of a positive nature either.
goto11 6y ago
Worth noting that in Denmark the prohibition against pornography was repealed by a conservative government. The concern was that due process could not be applied fairly since the definition of obscenity was so subjective. There was a number of cases where works of literature or art were charged with obscenity, and it became an embarrassment to police and the judicial system since the criteria was so arbitrary. So it wasn't so much a question of pro or against porn, it it a question of justice. The discussion mostly concerned "obscene" literature since photographic porn was not widespread. But the repeal of the law combined with technological advances made Denmark into a powerhouse of pornography magazines and movies - probably not what the conservative government had expected.

scottlocklin 6y ago

Oh please; OP was boasting of legalizing porn as some great achievement of his people. It's not a great achievement of his people, nor an inexorable sign of progress. It is at best something marginal, like making slot machines legal so swine like Sheldon Adelson can buy off US politicians instead of scurrying around in criminal back alleys avoiding police where gambling syndicates belong. You're lecturing me on the "liberal paradigm in law" which was somehow invented in the 1960s rather back in the 1700s when the rest of the liberal paradigm was invented by, you know, the philosophers who invented classical liberalism. And great reddit tier red herring about "defining porn." How about "all the filth that the Danes made legal, as OP was boasting about." Is that a clear enough definition for you, or do you want to parse dirty pictures and debate the merits of DH Lawrence books?

claudiawerner 6y ago
>You're lecturing me on the "liberal paradigm in law" which was somehow invented in the 1960s rather back in the 1700s when the rest of the liberal paradigm was invented by, you know, the philosophers who invented classical liberalism. The liberal paradigm in law has only relatively recently gained support despite being "invented" long ago - whether we're talking about debate over obscenity laws, gay sex, alcohol, or, indeed, gambling. This is especially true in non-US countries which are not founded on explicitly liberal principles. The 60s saw the L. A. Hart and Patrick Lord Devlin debate on the limits of morality's place in law. >And great reddit tier red herring about "defining porn." Not a red herring at all. I frankly do not trust legislators to possess an accurate or up-to-date understanding of what the relvant literature shows, with what confidence, or explanatory power. I also do not trust the blunt force of the law to limit its scope. The Danes probably made erotic fanfiction legal too. Imagine you're a fanfiction writer, and your craft is illegalized and you're thrown in prison despite the fact that your government could not produce any evidence that your craft causes the harm attributed to other porn. That would be an injustice, and just like the prohibition of alcohol on similar grounds, I can't support it unless we're clear ahead of time what this means for freedom of expression.
- scottlocklin 6y ago
  > Imagine you're a fanfiction writer.... No, I can't imagine I'm a fanfiction writer because it's a pathetic and awful hobby, and I honest to god don't care about their alleged right to make grubby Mr Spock porn, thus condemning (by your tortuous logic) generations to be subjected to disgusting, degrading and addictive pornography. Imagine being a dope fiend .... yep; still not imagining it. Imagine being a <insert another degenerate and completely non sympathetic category of person> -no thank you! Community decency laws used to work just fine, and I do not see their eradication as an improvement in the over all state of the human race. Just like anti-gambling laws; and gambling is at least not pumped into every household. Every society has a right to chose the levels of degeneracy allowed: necrophilia, prostitution, drug use and bestiality are all victimless crimes as well which should be allowed via your imbecile version of "liberal paradigms." Looking forward to your spirited defence of philip morris brand heroin-addicted prostitutes being voluntarily violated and eaten alive by wild beasts for family viewing on early evening television. Denmark doesn't get to claim "muh cummies" as a great cultural achievement. Not any more than their whorehouses or gambling parlours. Personally I don't think their posturing on environmental virtues will amount to much of a positive nature either.

goto11 6y ago

Worth noting that in Denmark the prohibition against pornography was repealed by a conservative government. The concern was that due process could not be applied fairly since the definition of obscenity was so subjective. There was a number of cases where works of literature or art were charged with obscenity, and it became an embarrassment to police and the judicial system since the criteria was so arbitrary. So it wasn't so much a question of pro or against porn, it it a question of justice. The discussion mostly concerned "obscene" literature since photographic porn was not widespread. But the repeal of the law combined with technological advances made Denmark into a powerhouse of pornography magazines and movies - probably not what the conservative government had expected.