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Yes, absolutely. With Bitcoin people protect their hard earned savings from rampant inflation present in many countries. With Monero people regain their right t

Yes, absolutely. With Bitcoin people protect their hard earned savings from rampant inflation present in many countries. With Monero people regain their right to financial privacy online.

Traubenfuchs 6y ago
Ok, so we are at real use number 3. after "pyramid / get rich quick scheme" and "volatile high risk investment", the "evading the bank system, shady financial transactions and tax evasion" part.
- andai 6y ago
  Yeah, sure, I mean, if you spend all day shuffling words around, you can make anything sound bad.
- qertoip 6y ago
  That's your use case, not mine.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  You may want to evade the banking system even if you don't want to evade taxes: I was always very frugal and hard working in my life, and just put more and more money on my bank account to be safe. I didn't invest in the stock market or houses, as I thought that they are overvalued. Then one day in 2013 I saw that in Cyprus the banks just took away money from other people, who saved all their lives. It felt close, because I'm also from the EU, and Cyprus is not a 3rd world country....that's when I bought Bitcoin with a part of my money, because I understood it that if I keep the private key secure, nobody can take it away from me.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    > I understood it that if I keep the private key secure, nobody can take it away from me. They can, though. All it takes is a majority of the miners deciding to do so. For example: https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/07/20/hard-fork-completed/ https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/07/20/hard-fork-completed/
    - xiphias2 6y ago
      Hard fork is very different from double spend attack that miners can try. As long as I run my full node when accepting Bitcoin, I can choose which node I run (I guess I don't give away a big a secret if I tell you that I run Bitcoin Core). The DAO hard fork happened because most people with economic power who run nodes in Ethereum accept Vitaly's decision. With Bitcoin there's a concensus at this point that only bug fix hard forks are accepted.
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        > With Bitcoin there's a concensus at this point that only bug fix hard forks are accepted. There was a consensus that Cyprus bank accounts were solvent, until they weren't. > The DAO hard fork happened because most people with economic power who run nodes in Ethereum accept Vitaly's decision. Yes. The point is that can happen to Bitcoin, too. Is it unlikely? Perhaps. It's also unlikely you'll have your bank account take a haircut via government action like Cyprus took.
        samatman 6y ago
        These are in entirely different classes of unlikely. What's more, you've shown that you know enough about cryptocurrencies that you know this. You are arguing in bad faith.
        ceejayoz 6y ago
        > These are in entirely different classes of unlikely. I disagree. I'm ultimately arguing that this: > I understood it that if I keep the private key secure, nobody can take it away from me. Is demonstrably false, both from a practical and a technological standpoint. I've more faith in developed-world governments than I do in Bitcoin's miners.
        samatman 6y ago
        For it to be demonstrably false for Bitcoin, you would have to demonstrate that it has ever been false. Which you won't do, because you can't.
  - howlgarnish 6y ago
    Until, completely hypothetically, some sketchy company creates $20 billion out of thin air and uses it to pump the price of all Bitcoin (including yours) to insane speculative heights... and then the bubble pops.
    - xiphias2 6y ago
      I have lost and gained back 80% of my net worth multiple times at this point...I don't care...I mean of course it's a bad feeling, but it's a part of life that I can weather much better than my friends. I'm still more scared of bank accounts, as the banks don't have the same transparency.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        So you’re scared of bank accounts that by your own mesure haven’t harmed you. In fact since the creation of the FDIC after the Great Depression, not a single American has lost a single penny to bank failure - even though numerous economic calamities have ensued in the interim. Instead you dumped your life savings into something that’s demonstrably wrecked you a few times, at one point leaving you with 20% (?!) of what you started with? If you don’t care about what’s in there, as you mustn’t to be ok with that, why do you care about putting it into a bank account? Because of the Cypriot banking crisis of 2012? On a tiny island in the Mediterranean split between 3 countries (the Greeks, the Turks and a pair of British overseas territories serving as military bases from when the whole island was under their administration) known for its shaky financial system? 4% of the land mass of Cyprus is a UN buffer zone between the various belligerents! I mean you know how that reads right? It sounds a bit like the anti-vaxxers of finance.
        xiphias2 6y ago
        You picked the country with one of the best financial systems in the world. Also are you sure? 90 years ago US was on the gold standard. Are you sure you can still get the gold that was promised 90 years ago? If you see the amount of debt being created and not payed back, it’s just a system designed for risk takers. I was buying phyisical gold as well, but over time switched to Bitcoin + having an own apartment in case I lose it all. For me just the legal definition of being a creditor to the bank when I wanted to own my money didn’t feel right.
user-the-name 6y ago
Where "right to financial privacy online" translates as "ability to pay for illegal goods and services".
- qertoip 6y ago
  That may be your case and so your bias.
  - user-the-name 6y ago
    No, that is just the case with Monero. It is used mainly for criminal activity.
    - jsutton 6y ago
      That's objectively your assumption. You really have no way of knowing what it's mainly used for.
      - user-the-name 6y ago
        It's crime, though.
- qertoip 6y ago
  Also, do you shut the door in a public toilet? If so, you must be snorting coke, I guess. Why on Earth would you shut the toilet door otherwise?
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    I mean you publish all Bitcoin transactions on a global ledger so I suspect in this metaphor you’re the one with the stall door open. My bank doesnt share my transactions except as required by law in the event of suspicious activity. But if we’re going to play this game, if everyone walking into the bathroom came out with a renewed sense of self esteem, a nose bleed and a sudden urge to dance, yes, I think you would be looked at sideways for closing the door. What’s lacking from your rhetorical question is context.

Yes, absolutely. With Bitcoin people protect their hard earned savings from rampant inflation present in many countries. With Monero people regain their right to financial privacy online.

Traubenfuchs 6y ago

Ok, so we are at real use number 3. after "pyramid / get rich quick scheme" and "volatile high risk investment", the "evading the bank system, shady financial transactions and tax evasion" part.

andai 6y ago
Yeah, sure, I mean, if you spend all day shuffling words around, you can make anything sound bad.
qertoip 6y ago
That's your use case, not mine.
xiphias2 6y ago
You may want to evade the banking system even if you don't want to evade taxes: I was always very frugal and hard working in my life, and just put more and more money on my bank account to be safe. I didn't invest in the stock market or houses, as I thought that they are overvalued. Then one day in 2013 I saw that in Cyprus the banks just took away money from other people, who saved all their lives. It felt close, because I'm also from the EU, and Cyprus is not a 3rd world country....that's when I bought Bitcoin with a part of my money, because I understood it that if I keep the private key secure, nobody can take it away from me.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  > I understood it that if I keep the private key secure, nobody can take it away from me. They can, though. All it takes is a majority of the miners deciding to do so. For example: https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/07/20/hard-fork-completed/ https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/07/20/hard-fork-completed/
  - xiphias2 6y ago
    Hard fork is very different from double spend attack that miners can try. As long as I run my full node when accepting Bitcoin, I can choose which node I run (I guess I don't give away a big a secret if I tell you that I run Bitcoin Core). The DAO hard fork happened because most people with economic power who run nodes in Ethereum accept Vitaly's decision. With Bitcoin there's a concensus at this point that only bug fix hard forks are accepted.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      > With Bitcoin there's a concensus at this point that only bug fix hard forks are accepted. There was a consensus that Cyprus bank accounts were solvent, until they weren't. > The DAO hard fork happened because most people with economic power who run nodes in Ethereum accept Vitaly's decision. Yes. The point is that can happen to Bitcoin, too. Is it unlikely? Perhaps. It's also unlikely you'll have your bank account take a haircut via government action like Cyprus took.
      - samatman 6y ago
        These are in entirely different classes of unlikely. What's more, you've shown that you know enough about cryptocurrencies that you know this. You are arguing in bad faith.
        ceejayoz 6y ago
        > These are in entirely different classes of unlikely. I disagree. I'm ultimately arguing that this: > I understood it that if I keep the private key secure, nobody can take it away from me. Is demonstrably false, both from a practical and a technological standpoint. I've more faith in developed-world governments than I do in Bitcoin's miners.
        samatman 6y ago
        For it to be demonstrably false for Bitcoin, you would have to demonstrate that it has ever been false. Which you won't do, because you can't.
- howlgarnish 6y ago
  Until, completely hypothetically, some sketchy company creates $20 billion out of thin air and uses it to pump the price of all Bitcoin (including yours) to insane speculative heights... and then the bubble pops.
  - xiphias2 6y ago
    I have lost and gained back 80% of my net worth multiple times at this point...I don't care...I mean of course it's a bad feeling, but it's a part of life that I can weather much better than my friends. I'm still more scared of bank accounts, as the banks don't have the same transparency.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      So you’re scared of bank accounts that by your own mesure haven’t harmed you. In fact since the creation of the FDIC after the Great Depression, not a single American has lost a single penny to bank failure - even though numerous economic calamities have ensued in the interim. Instead you dumped your life savings into something that’s demonstrably wrecked you a few times, at one point leaving you with 20% (?!) of what you started with? If you don’t care about what’s in there, as you mustn’t to be ok with that, why do you care about putting it into a bank account? Because of the Cypriot banking crisis of 2012? On a tiny island in the Mediterranean split between 3 countries (the Greeks, the Turks and a pair of British overseas territories serving as military bases from when the whole island was under their administration) known for its shaky financial system? 4% of the land mass of Cyprus is a UN buffer zone between the various belligerents! I mean you know how that reads right? It sounds a bit like the anti-vaxxers of finance.
      - xiphias2 6y ago
        You picked the country with one of the best financial systems in the world. Also are you sure? 90 years ago US was on the gold standard. Are you sure you can still get the gold that was promised 90 years ago? If you see the amount of debt being created and not payed back, it’s just a system designed for risk takers. I was buying phyisical gold as well, but over time switched to Bitcoin + having an own apartment in case I lose it all. For me just the legal definition of being a creditor to the bank when I wanted to own my money didn’t feel right.

user-the-name 6y ago

Where "right to financial privacy online" translates as "ability to pay for illegal goods and services".

qertoip 6y ago
That may be your case and so your bias.
- user-the-name 6y ago
  No, that is just the case with Monero. It is used mainly for criminal activity.
  - jsutton 6y ago
    That's objectively your assumption. You really have no way of knowing what it's mainly used for.
    - user-the-name 6y ago
      It's crime, though.
qertoip 6y ago
Also, do you shut the door in a public toilet? If so, you must be snorting coke, I guess. Why on Earth would you shut the toilet door otherwise?
- arcticbull 6y ago
  I mean you publish all Bitcoin transactions on a global ledger so I suspect in this metaphor you’re the one with the stall door open. My bank doesnt share my transactions except as required by law in the event of suspicious activity. But if we’re going to play this game, if everyone walking into the bathroom came out with a renewed sense of self esteem, a nose bleed and a sudden urge to dance, yes, I think you would be looked at sideways for closing the door. What’s lacking from your rhetorical question is context.