4 ms·

Right. PHP is not the problem. Nor is the bread, or the connectors, or the husband/wife. That is exactly my point - you are leveling a criticism at yourself and

Right. PHP is not the problem. Nor is the bread, or the connectors, or the husband/wife. That is exactly my point - you are leveling a criticism at yourself and your own inability to use a tool. This is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself or the other practitioners who choose to use it. It is therefore a bit offensive that the conclusion you draw is that developers who use PHP must have a deficit in their ability to work through problems. The “problems” do not change based on which language is chosen to solve them. That is, if you actually understand the “problems” in the first place...

afarrell 6y ago
> It is therefore a bit offensive that the conclusion you draw is that developers who use PHP must have a deficit in their ability to work through problems. That is distinctly and meaningfully different from what I said. I did not say PHP developers have a deficit. I'm saying the PHP community has certain values and approaches problems with a certain perspective. I see PHP developers as those whose perspective does not highly value the interaction between how a tool is shaped and its users ability to use the tool to think through problems. A programmer with this perspective might say that a tool's usability in a context is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself or the community of other practitioners who choose to use it.
- kingdomcome50 6y ago
  > I'm saying the PHP community has certain values and approaches problems with a certain perspective What are those values and what is that perspective? Your argument is getting rather hand-wavy. I'm not entirely sure what I would be arguing if I attempted to disagree. Without a more concrete formulation my current hypothesis is that you are simply disguising your ignorance as projection.
  - afarrell 6y ago
    If you attempted to disagree, you would have to argue one of the following: A. The following is not a common perspective among the PHP community: "Problems do not change based on the language chosen to solve them. Inability to use a tool is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself." B. That perspective has absolutely zero impact whatsoever on the choices of tooling, frameworks, automated tests, and code found in an unknown team's PHP codebase. C. Whatever impact that perspective does have on the differences between a Python codebase and a PHP codebase will not meaningfully impact the productivity of /u/afarrell. D. Therefore, it cannot be the right personal choice for /u/afarrell or another developer to avoid PHP. Do not leave money on the table for /u/kingdomcome50 or /u/tux. ------------------------------------------ If your response to this is "Huh? Sure, whatever. Different people are different. Make your own personal choices. It's a free country." then that is 80% of my point. The other 20% is: Lack of self-knowledge and the inability to give/take a rejection will lead you to do things that are not healthy for you. Don't eat lasagna if you're lactose intolerant. Can we please stop acting like 'I do not want to write code in X language' is a personal attack on the intelligence of those who _do_ work in X language?
    - kingdomcome50 6y ago
      No one is acting. The question: > When I read comments coming from people who don't use PHP which are always negative or condescending, I wonder - how do you imagine programmers who use PHP are like? Your answer: > I imagine programmers who do not place a high value on the impact that their tools have on their ability to think through problems effectively Even in the most charitable of circumstances it's hard to read your words in a way that isn't a slight against someone who chooses PHP. Especially when taken in the context of the discussion to which you are responding. And even more so because you have yet to substantiate (or even define) that claim in any meaningful way. I have no problem with someone who doesn't like PHP (or any language). I don't particularly like PHP. And you know what? I hate python! But I am not making sweeping generalizations about those who program in python and whether or not they value their "ability to think through problems effectively"[0]. Mostly because that claim would make no sense at all... It's hard to rationalize your answer above to mean anything like "Don't eat lasagna if you're lactose intolerant", so forgive me when I say that you are the one acting. Hey! I get it. You don't like PHP and you took a cheap shot at it. We all do it. The "PHP sucks" trope is hard to resist! But don't act like that isn't what happened. Have some self-knowledge and take the rejection. It's healthier that way. [0] or import a file in a sane way :)
      - afarrell 6y ago
        > you have yet to substantiate (or even define) that claim in any meaningful way. Sure. To define my claim more clearly: 1. There is a set Q (Programmers who believe that tools have a negligible impact on a programmer's ability to use that tool to think through problems) A set Q's belief in the low impact of tools is expressed by statements like: - "You still have to figure the problem out before solving it with algorithms. No language or framework will help you do that." - "you are leveling a criticism at yourself and your own inability to use a tool. This is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself" - "The 'problems' do not change based on which language is chosen to solve them." 2. There is a set P (programmers who prefer to choose PHP) 3. My first claim is that a member of set P is likely to also be a member of set Q. PHP developers are likely to believe the things that people in this very subthread are saying. Do you still find my first claim unclear, insufficiently-supported, or offensive?
tux 6y ago
@kingdomcome50, The “problems” do not change based on which language is chosen to solve them. That is, if you actually understand the “problems” in the first place... I couldn't say it better myself :-)
- afarrell 6y ago
  Generally, no. I only slightly understand the problems when I start. I need tools like a programming language which helps me think through the problems more deeply over time and automated tests which help me safely refactor as I learn more about the problems. I think the PHP community has other priorities driven by other values, like being able to start a project and publish to the web quickly. I think this means that I personally should not choose PHP.

afarrell 6y ago

> It is therefore a bit offensive that the conclusion you draw is that developers who use PHP must have a deficit in their ability to work through problems. That is distinctly and meaningfully different from what I said. I did not say PHP developers have a deficit. I'm saying the PHP community has certain values and approaches problems with a certain perspective. I see PHP developers as those whose perspective does not highly value the interaction between how a tool is shaped and its users ability to use the tool to think through problems. A programmer with this perspective might say that a tool's usability in a context is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself or the community of other practitioners who choose to use it.

kingdomcome50 6y ago
> I'm saying the PHP community has certain values and approaches problems with a certain perspective What are those values and what is that perspective? Your argument is getting rather hand-wavy. I'm not entirely sure what I would be arguing if I attempted to disagree. Without a more concrete formulation my current hypothesis is that you are simply disguising your ignorance as projection.
- afarrell 6y ago
  If you attempted to disagree, you would have to argue one of the following: A. The following is not a common perspective among the PHP community: "Problems do not change based on the language chosen to solve them. Inability to use a tool is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself." B. That perspective has absolutely zero impact whatsoever on the choices of tooling, frameworks, automated tests, and code found in an unknown team's PHP codebase. C. Whatever impact that perspective does have on the differences between a Python codebase and a PHP codebase will not meaningfully impact the productivity of /u/afarrell. D. Therefore, it cannot be the right personal choice for /u/afarrell or another developer to avoid PHP. Do not leave money on the table for /u/kingdomcome50 or /u/tux. ------------------------------------------ If your response to this is "Huh? Sure, whatever. Different people are different. Make your own personal choices. It's a free country." then that is 80% of my point. The other 20% is: Lack of self-knowledge and the inability to give/take a rejection will lead you to do things that are not healthy for you. Don't eat lasagna if you're lactose intolerant. Can we please stop acting like 'I do not want to write code in X language' is a personal attack on the intelligence of those who _do_ work in X language?
  - kingdomcome50 6y ago
    No one is acting. The question: > When I read comments coming from people who don't use PHP which are always negative or condescending, I wonder - how do you imagine programmers who use PHP are like? Your answer: > I imagine programmers who do not place a high value on the impact that their tools have on their ability to think through problems effectively Even in the most charitable of circumstances it's hard to read your words in a way that isn't a slight against someone who chooses PHP. Especially when taken in the context of the discussion to which you are responding. And even more so because you have yet to substantiate (or even define) that claim in any meaningful way. I have no problem with someone who doesn't like PHP (or any language). I don't particularly like PHP. And you know what? I hate python! But I am not making sweeping generalizations about those who program in python and whether or not they value their "ability to think through problems effectively"[0]. Mostly because that claim would make no sense at all... It's hard to rationalize your answer above to mean anything like "Don't eat lasagna if you're lactose intolerant", so forgive me when I say that you are the one acting. Hey! I get it. You don't like PHP and you took a cheap shot at it. We all do it. The "PHP sucks" trope is hard to resist! But don't act like that isn't what happened. Have some self-knowledge and take the rejection. It's healthier that way. [0] or import a file in a sane way :)
    - afarrell 6y ago
      > you have yet to substantiate (or even define) that claim in any meaningful way. Sure. To define my claim more clearly: 1. There is a set Q (Programmers who believe that tools have a negligible impact on a programmer's ability to use that tool to think through problems) A set Q's belief in the low impact of tools is expressed by statements like: - "You still have to figure the problem out before solving it with algorithms. No language or framework will help you do that." - "you are leveling a criticism at yourself and your own inability to use a tool. This is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself" - "The 'problems' do not change based on which language is chosen to solve them." 2. There is a set P (programmers who prefer to choose PHP) 3. My first claim is that a member of set P is likely to also be a member of set Q. PHP developers are likely to believe the things that people in this very subthread are saying. Do you still find my first claim unclear, insufficiently-supported, or offensive?

tux 6y ago

@kingdomcome50, The “problems” do not change based on which language is chosen to solve them. That is, if you actually understand the “problems” in the first place... I couldn't say it better myself :-)

afarrell 6y ago
Generally, no. I only slightly understand the problems when I start. I need tools like a programming language which helps me think through the problems more deeply over time and automated tests which help me safely refactor as I learn more about the problems. I think the PHP community has other priorities driven by other values, like being able to start a project and publish to the web quickly. I think this means that I personally should not choose PHP.