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Anything that’s settled in dollars or dollar-like synthetic instruments will have KYC/AML.

that_guy_iain 6y ago
Says who? Who is going to enforce some random African country that is in the middle of a civil war to have those? Also, lots of drug deals are settled in US dollars, they don't have that. So your point that anything settled in dollars will have those laws is way off the mark and easily disproven.
- eloff 6y ago
  That's not how finance works. If you don't follow the rules, you get cut off from the rest of the ecosystem which is tightly controlled by the US. So if diem wants to operate at all, they must adhere to the rules regardless of which countries they are operating in.
  - that_guy_iain 6y ago
    This is meant to be a completely different ecosystem, no? An ecosystem not controlled with the US. This isn't a normal financal service, it's not banking, it's outside of banking hence why it's aimed and people without banks. And other companies are already in this space providing basically the same service. It seems to me, people applying how companies 1st world countries + the US operate to how companies in 3rd world countries (except the US) have to operate.
    - eloff 6y ago
      That might be workable only if you specifically don't interface with the outside financial world. If for example you require a third party exchange to sell to fiat currency, that should work. But that exchange has to do the KYC stuff and the unbanked are still cut out. Now if it's a local exchange for a local currency, not USD then is fine.
      - that_guy_iain 6y ago
        > Now if it's a local exchange for a local currency, not USD then is fine. They can exchange in physical currency which would be acceptable in most third world countries and with the amount physical currency floating around they wouldn't need to get any from the US, no?
        eloff 6y ago
        I don't think you could do that at any scale and escape the wrath of the US. That runs afoul of most money laundering regulations, so if you have any presence in the US they'll go after you, and they'll prosecute anyone with any serious connection to it and extradite those people to the US where possible. Moving money across international borders is not a problem you can just engineer around. You have to play by the rules.
    - stu2b50 6y ago
      If you don't play by the US's rules you can't withdraw in USD. Which is the only fiat currency Diem supports conversion into right now.
      - that_guy_iain 6y ago
        > If you don't play by the US's rules you can't withdraw in USD. The dollar is traded so much that I don't think they need to actually get dollars from the US to be able to use the dollar. If it's going into banks, yea, but if you're just giving people the notes, you're good to go.
        stu2b50 6y ago
        It's extremely difficult to facilitate USD money movement if you're blacklisted by the US treasury. Just ask Iran. I suppose technically possible (again: ask Iran) but somehow I doubt Facebook is playing that game.
    - janeroe 6y ago
      > This is meant to be a completely different ecosystem, no? An ecosystem not controlled with the US. There is no such thing as an ecosystem not controlled by the US. You have any ties with the States (and Facebook, clearly, does), you gonna comply with whatever rules they come up with. If you don't believe me, ask Huawei's top manager. Or lots of other people like him.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      >>> Says who? Who is going to enforce some random African country that is in the middle of a civil war to have those? > This is meant to be a completely different ecosystem, no? An ecosystem not controlled with the US. This isn't a normal financal service, it's not banking, it's outside of banking hence why it's aimed and people without banks. Last I checked, Facebook is a US company, with a US headquarters, publicly traded on a US stock market, and with an American CEO and controlling shareholder. So, unless they all want to relocate permanently to "some random African country that is in the middle of a civil war", they're going to have to deal with US regulations.
      - that_guy_iain 6y ago
        It's not legally Facebook though.
TigeriusKirk 6y ago
This is a global project, so it will be used in countries where this just isn't accurate.
- jiofih 6y ago
  Like, for example? Micronesia? You may want to update your world view for the 21st century - there is no “wild west” left, every country where this matters will have financial regulations.
  - TigeriusKirk 6y ago
    It's simply wrong to state every country that "matters" has KYC/AML regulations similar to those required in the US.
    - ExtraServings 6y ago
      so again, which countries?
      - TigeriusKirk 6y ago
        Many, many countries don't have KYC/AML laws as strict as the US. If you want specifics, I encourage you to look into it.
        jiofih 6y ago
        Countries like...? You must have a source or some knowledge backing that statement?

Says who? Who is going to enforce some random African country that is in the middle of a civil war to have those? Also, lots of drug deals are settled in US dollars, they don't have that. So your point that anything settled in dollars will have those laws is way off the mark and easily disproven.

eloff 6y ago
That's not how finance works. If you don't follow the rules, you get cut off from the rest of the ecosystem which is tightly controlled by the US. So if diem wants to operate at all, they must adhere to the rules regardless of which countries they are operating in.
- that_guy_iain 6y ago
  This is meant to be a completely different ecosystem, no? An ecosystem not controlled with the US. This isn't a normal financal service, it's not banking, it's outside of banking hence why it's aimed and people without banks. And other companies are already in this space providing basically the same service. It seems to me, people applying how companies 1st world countries + the US operate to how companies in 3rd world countries (except the US) have to operate.
  - eloff 6y ago
    That might be workable only if you specifically don't interface with the outside financial world. If for example you require a third party exchange to sell to fiat currency, that should work. But that exchange has to do the KYC stuff and the unbanked are still cut out. Now if it's a local exchange for a local currency, not USD then is fine.
    - that_guy_iain 6y ago
      > Now if it's a local exchange for a local currency, not USD then is fine. They can exchange in physical currency which would be acceptable in most third world countries and with the amount physical currency floating around they wouldn't need to get any from the US, no?
      - eloff 6y ago
        I don't think you could do that at any scale and escape the wrath of the US. That runs afoul of most money laundering regulations, so if you have any presence in the US they'll go after you, and they'll prosecute anyone with any serious connection to it and extradite those people to the US where possible. Moving money across international borders is not a problem you can just engineer around. You have to play by the rules.
  - stu2b50 6y ago
    If you don't play by the US's rules you can't withdraw in USD. Which is the only fiat currency Diem supports conversion into right now.
    - that_guy_iain 6y ago
      > If you don't play by the US's rules you can't withdraw in USD. The dollar is traded so much that I don't think they need to actually get dollars from the US to be able to use the dollar. If it's going into banks, yea, but if you're just giving people the notes, you're good to go.
      - stu2b50 6y ago
        It's extremely difficult to facilitate USD money movement if you're blacklisted by the US treasury. Just ask Iran. I suppose technically possible (again: ask Iran) but somehow I doubt Facebook is playing that game.
  - janeroe 6y ago
    > This is meant to be a completely different ecosystem, no? An ecosystem not controlled with the US. There is no such thing as an ecosystem not controlled by the US. You have any ties with the States (and Facebook, clearly, does), you gonna comply with whatever rules they come up with. If you don't believe me, ask Huawei's top manager. Or lots of other people like him.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    >>> Says who? Who is going to enforce some random African country that is in the middle of a civil war to have those? > This is meant to be a completely different ecosystem, no? An ecosystem not controlled with the US. This isn't a normal financal service, it's not banking, it's outside of banking hence why it's aimed and people without banks. Last I checked, Facebook is a US company, with a US headquarters, publicly traded on a US stock market, and with an American CEO and controlling shareholder. So, unless they all want to relocate permanently to "some random African country that is in the middle of a civil war", they're going to have to deal with US regulations.
    - that_guy_iain 6y ago
      It's not legally Facebook though.

TigeriusKirk 6y ago

This is a global project, so it will be used in countries where this just isn't accurate.

jiofih 6y ago
Like, for example? Micronesia? You may want to update your world view for the 21st century - there is no “wild west” left, every country where this matters will have financial regulations.
- TigeriusKirk 6y ago
  It's simply wrong to state every country that "matters" has KYC/AML regulations similar to those required in the US.
  - ExtraServings 6y ago
    so again, which countries?
    - TigeriusKirk 6y ago
      Many, many countries don't have KYC/AML laws as strict as the US. If you want specifics, I encourage you to look into it.
      - jiofih 6y ago
        Countries like...? You must have a source or some knowledge backing that statement?