4 ms·

> The whole “unbanked” thing is really unconvincing, because there's no way Libra/Diem will be usable for people who don't have identity documents and the evide

> The whole “unbanked” thing is really unconvincing, because there's no way Libra/Diem will be usable for people who don't have identity documents and the evidence needed for KYC/AML forms, and that excludes most unbanked people. Who says the countries this will be used in have KYC/AML? The unbanked people this would be for aren't in countries that have those laws. > As for international money transfers: TransferWise and the like are already providing better solutions in that space without forcing you to use Facebook Coins. Now you might say that mostly caters to the rich world, and that's true, but the people who can't use TransferWise are probably not going to be able to use Libra/Diem either for the same reasons they can't use TransferWise: ID documents, KYC/AML, plus capital controls and sanction regimes which aren't magically going to disappear for this new currency. Can't use transferwise, so can't use something else. This isn't aimed at people who can use banking where KYC or AML apply. It's for people who are curently using other unbanking payment methods.

josh2600 6y ago
Anything that’s settled in dollars or dollar-like synthetic instruments will have KYC/AML.
- that_guy_iain 6y ago
  Says who? Who is going to enforce some random African country that is in the middle of a civil war to have those? Also, lots of drug deals are settled in US dollars, they don't have that. So your point that anything settled in dollars will have those laws is way off the mark and easily disproven.
  - eloff 6y ago
    That's not how finance works. If you don't follow the rules, you get cut off from the rest of the ecosystem which is tightly controlled by the US. So if diem wants to operate at all, they must adhere to the rules regardless of which countries they are operating in.
    - that_guy_iain 6y ago
      This is meant to be a completely different ecosystem, no? An ecosystem not controlled with the US. This isn't a normal financal service, it's not banking, it's outside of banking hence why it's aimed and people without banks. And other companies are already in this space providing basically the same service. It seems to me, people applying how companies 1st world countries + the US operate to how companies in 3rd world countries (except the US) have to operate.
      - eloff 6y ago
        That might be workable only if you specifically don't interface with the outside financial world. If for example you require a third party exchange to sell to fiat currency, that should work. But that exchange has to do the KYC stuff and the unbanked are still cut out. Now if it's a local exchange for a local currency, not USD then is fine.
        that_guy_iain 6y ago
        > Now if it's a local exchange for a local currency, not USD then is fine. They can exchange in physical currency which would be acceptable in most third world countries and with the amount physical currency floating around they wouldn't need to get any from the US, no?
        eloff 6y ago
        I don't think you could do that at any scale and escape the wrath of the US. That runs afoul of most money laundering regulations, so if you have any presence in the US they'll go after you, and they'll prosecute anyone with any serious connection to it and extradite those people to the US where possible. Moving money across international borders is not a problem you can just engineer around. You have to play by the rules.
      - stu2b50 6y ago
        If you don't play by the US's rules you can't withdraw in USD. Which is the only fiat currency Diem supports conversion into right now.
- TigeriusKirk 6y ago
  This is a global project, so it will be used in countries where this just isn't accurate.
  - jiofih 6y ago
    Like, for example? Micronesia? You may want to update your world view for the 21st century - there is no “wild west” left, every country where this matters will have financial regulations.
    - TigeriusKirk 6y ago
      It's simply wrong to state every country that "matters" has KYC/AML regulations similar to those required in the US.
      - ExtraServings 6y ago
        so again, which countries?
        TigeriusKirk 6y ago
        Many, many countries don't have KYC/AML laws as strict as the US. If you want specifics, I encourage you to look into it.
        jiofih 6y ago
        Countries like...? You must have a source or some knowledge backing that statement?
yorwba 6y ago
> Who says the countries this will be used in have KYC/AML? The unbanked people this would be for aren't in countries that have those laws. You mean like Somalia? Even Somalia has KYC/AML laws: https://frc.gov.so/aml-cft-law/ https://frc.gov.so/aml-cft-law/ (Customer due diligence is Art. 5) Are there any countries that don't have similar laws?

josh2600 6y ago

Anything that’s settled in dollars or dollar-like synthetic instruments will have KYC/AML.

that_guy_iain 6y ago
Says who? Who is going to enforce some random African country that is in the middle of a civil war to have those? Also, lots of drug deals are settled in US dollars, they don't have that. So your point that anything settled in dollars will have those laws is way off the mark and easily disproven.
- eloff 6y ago
  That's not how finance works. If you don't follow the rules, you get cut off from the rest of the ecosystem which is tightly controlled by the US. So if diem wants to operate at all, they must adhere to the rules regardless of which countries they are operating in.
  - that_guy_iain 6y ago
    This is meant to be a completely different ecosystem, no? An ecosystem not controlled with the US. This isn't a normal financal service, it's not banking, it's outside of banking hence why it's aimed and people without banks. And other companies are already in this space providing basically the same service. It seems to me, people applying how companies 1st world countries + the US operate to how companies in 3rd world countries (except the US) have to operate.
    - eloff 6y ago
      That might be workable only if you specifically don't interface with the outside financial world. If for example you require a third party exchange to sell to fiat currency, that should work. But that exchange has to do the KYC stuff and the unbanked are still cut out. Now if it's a local exchange for a local currency, not USD then is fine.
      - that_guy_iain 6y ago
        > Now if it's a local exchange for a local currency, not USD then is fine. They can exchange in physical currency which would be acceptable in most third world countries and with the amount physical currency floating around they wouldn't need to get any from the US, no?
        eloff 6y ago
        I don't think you could do that at any scale and escape the wrath of the US. That runs afoul of most money laundering regulations, so if you have any presence in the US they'll go after you, and they'll prosecute anyone with any serious connection to it and extradite those people to the US where possible. Moving money across international borders is not a problem you can just engineer around. You have to play by the rules.
    - stu2b50 6y ago
      If you don't play by the US's rules you can't withdraw in USD. Which is the only fiat currency Diem supports conversion into right now.
TigeriusKirk 6y ago
This is a global project, so it will be used in countries where this just isn't accurate.
- jiofih 6y ago
  Like, for example? Micronesia? You may want to update your world view for the 21st century - there is no “wild west” left, every country where this matters will have financial regulations.
  - TigeriusKirk 6y ago
    It's simply wrong to state every country that "matters" has KYC/AML regulations similar to those required in the US.
    - ExtraServings 6y ago
      so again, which countries?
      - TigeriusKirk 6y ago
        Many, many countries don't have KYC/AML laws as strict as the US. If you want specifics, I encourage you to look into it.
        jiofih 6y ago
        Countries like...? You must have a source or some knowledge backing that statement?

yorwba 6y ago

> Who says the countries this will be used in have KYC/AML? The unbanked people this would be for aren't in countries that have those laws. You mean like Somalia? Even Somalia has KYC/AML laws: https://frc.gov.so/aml-cft-law/ https://frc.gov.so/aml-cft-law/ (Customer due diligence is Art. 5) Are there any countries that don't have similar laws?