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You didn't answer the question I asked, which was how many people's lives would be saved by keeping restaurants open. Instead you answered a question I didn't

You didn't answer the question I asked, which was how many people's lives would be saved by keeping restaurants open. Instead you answered a question I didn't ask: how many lives would be lost by allowing outdoor dining. Two completely different questions. However, if one of the requirements for making outdoor dining safe is to wear masks, I don't see how it can be made safe, since as far as I know people can't eat or drink with masks on. Furthermore, at least in my own informal witnessing of people dining outdoors, the norm is for people to socialize at tables without masks, with only a couple of feet between them. I wouldn't call that social distancing either. That's two strikes against outdoor dining: lack of masks and lack of social distancing. I'd love to have asked that UCSF expert what she had to say about this. Something else to consider is that restaurants aren't only doing poorly because they're being locked down, but even when they're open many people are choosing (very sensibly, from my perspective) to avoid them. That won't be fixed by ending lockdowns. Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear someone tell me how many lives would be saved by allowing restaurants to open. Is it going to be anywhere near 3,000 in a single day? Somehow I very much doubt it.

indecisive_user 6y ago
I did answer the question you asked. The answer for "how many lives would be saved" and "how many lives would be lost" if outdoor dining is/isn't banned is the same; approximately zero based on the evidence. You also have to consider that even if all restaurant dining is banned, that doesn't mean people are suddenly going to stop eating together, they'll just do it elsewhere, somewhere that's probably much riskier than an outdoor patio such as a car or inside someone's house. >I don't see how it can be made safe, since as far as I know people can't eat or drink with masks on. Clearly the principles of harm reduction discussed in the article account for patrons eating without a mask on while they are seated at a table, but I suspect you already knew that. >I'd love to have asked that UCSF expert what she had to say about this. I'd love to hear what she would have to say as well. Though seeing as she has a long career studying infectious diseases and has studied covid extensively over the past year, I'm inclined to think she has a good understanding of the risks involved in certain activities, certainly beyond the anecdotal evidence of commenters on HN. >I'm still waiting to hear someone tell me how many lives would be saved by allowing restaurants to open. Is it going to be anywhere near 3,000 in a single day? Somehow I very much doubt it. I'm not sure why you're waiting for this answer. The number of deaths in a day(3000) is unrelated to restaurants allowing outdoor dining, so why are you comparing them? Closing restaurants will not bring that number down, based on the science we have available, but if you have evidence that suggests otherwise feel free to share.
just-juan-post 6y ago
You're here to save lives. Great. Do you want to start by banning all alcohol consumption, ban unprotected sex, or by making private vehicle ownership illegal? Banning abortion saves lives too. Also motorcycles. > ...but even when they're open many people are choosing (very sensibly, from my perspective) to avoid them We should just open them then if nobody is going to go to them. In one breath you say we need to restrict them and in the other breath you say nobody will go. "I don't like to go there any more, it's too crowded" -- Yogi Berra Another amazing feat of physics - like masks. When Covid cases go up it's because people aren't wearing masks. When the CDC and other international organizations record near-zero flu deaths for the year 2020 it's due to mask usage. Somehow both things are happening at the same time.
- pmoriarty 6y ago
  "You're here to save lives. Great. Do you want to start by banning all alcohol consumption, ban unprotected sex, or by making private vehicle ownership illegal? Banning abortion saves lives too. Also motorcycles." Except for banning abortion, none of those things has a chance of actually being made illegal any time soon, so no use talking about any of them. And I don't think getting in to an argument about abortion in this thread would be productive. Let's see what else you've got... "We should just open them then if nobody is going to go to them. In one breath you say we need to restrict them and in the other breath you say nobody will go." Except some highly inconsiderate, ignorant, and/or stupid people are still going. It's those we have to worry about. So I'd vote to keep them closed. "Another amazing feat of physics - like masks. When Covid cases go up it's because people aren't wearing masks. When the CDC and other international organizations record near-zero flu deaths for the year 2020 it's due to mask usage." You know, it could be both? Because the flu might not be as contagious, and there are other measures being used as well, like increased hand washing, which might be more effective for preventing the flu than preventing COVID-19. And even if all the measures are equally effective, there just might not be as much flu going around this year. Anyway, the fact that flu deaths are also going down, probably due to some of the lockdown, mask, and distancing measures is is even more reason to continue them.

indecisive_user 6y ago

I did answer the question you asked. The answer for "how many lives would be saved" and "how many lives would be lost" if outdoor dining is/isn't banned is the same; approximately zero based on the evidence. You also have to consider that even if all restaurant dining is banned, that doesn't mean people are suddenly going to stop eating together, they'll just do it elsewhere, somewhere that's probably much riskier than an outdoor patio such as a car or inside someone's house. >I don't see how it can be made safe, since as far as I know people can't eat or drink with masks on. Clearly the principles of harm reduction discussed in the article account for patrons eating without a mask on while they are seated at a table, but I suspect you already knew that. >I'd love to have asked that UCSF expert what she had to say about this. I'd love to hear what she would have to say as well. Though seeing as she has a long career studying infectious diseases and has studied covid extensively over the past year, I'm inclined to think she has a good understanding of the risks involved in certain activities, certainly beyond the anecdotal evidence of commenters on HN. >I'm still waiting to hear someone tell me how many lives would be saved by allowing restaurants to open. Is it going to be anywhere near 3,000 in a single day? Somehow I very much doubt it. I'm not sure why you're waiting for this answer. The number of deaths in a day(3000) is unrelated to restaurants allowing outdoor dining, so why are you comparing them? Closing restaurants will not bring that number down, based on the science we have available, but if you have evidence that suggests otherwise feel free to share.

just-juan-post 6y ago

You're here to save lives. Great. Do you want to start by banning all alcohol consumption, ban unprotected sex, or by making private vehicle ownership illegal? Banning abortion saves lives too. Also motorcycles. > ...but even when they're open many people are choosing (very sensibly, from my perspective) to avoid them We should just open them then if nobody is going to go to them. In one breath you say we need to restrict them and in the other breath you say nobody will go. "I don't like to go there any more, it's too crowded" -- Yogi Berra Another amazing feat of physics - like masks. When Covid cases go up it's because people aren't wearing masks. When the CDC and other international organizations record near-zero flu deaths for the year 2020 it's due to mask usage. Somehow both things are happening at the same time.

pmoriarty 6y ago
"You're here to save lives. Great. Do you want to start by banning all alcohol consumption, ban unprotected sex, or by making private vehicle ownership illegal? Banning abortion saves lives too. Also motorcycles." Except for banning abortion, none of those things has a chance of actually being made illegal any time soon, so no use talking about any of them. And I don't think getting in to an argument about abortion in this thread would be productive. Let's see what else you've got... "We should just open them then if nobody is going to go to them. In one breath you say we need to restrict them and in the other breath you say nobody will go." Except some highly inconsiderate, ignorant, and/or stupid people are still going. It's those we have to worry about. So I'd vote to keep them closed. "Another amazing feat of physics - like masks. When Covid cases go up it's because people aren't wearing masks. When the CDC and other international organizations record near-zero flu deaths for the year 2020 it's due to mask usage." You know, it could be both? Because the flu might not be as contagious, and there are other measures being used as well, like increased hand washing, which might be more effective for preventing the flu than preventing COVID-19. And even if all the measures are equally effective, there just might not be as much flu going around this year. Anyway, the fact that flu deaths are also going down, probably due to some of the lockdown, mask, and distancing measures is is even more reason to continue them.