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>You tell me. How many? Based on the available evidence, I think the number is close to zero. >Restaurants have been mandated by the state to impose certain r

>You tell me. How many? Based on the available evidence, I think the number is close to zero. >Restaurants have been mandated by the state to impose certain regulations and hygiene measures. They follow the general principles of harm reduction that Monica Gandhi[0], an infectious disease expert at UCSF, goes by: masks, distancing, ventilation and hand hygiene. "There is no evidence that I can find anywhere in the world that outdoor dining with those four procedures in play increases the risk of COVID-19," she said. [1] So there seems to be no evidence that banning outdoor dining is going to do anything positive in stopping the spread, though we know for certain it will have destructive effects on people's well being and the economy. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_Gandhi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_Gandhi [1] https://www.houstonchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Is-outdoor-dining-spreading-coronavirus-As-15774639.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Is-outdoor-...

pmoriarty 6y ago
You didn't answer the question I asked, which was how many people's lives would be saved by keeping restaurants open. Instead you answered a question I didn't ask: how many lives would be lost by allowing outdoor dining. Two completely different questions. However, if one of the requirements for making outdoor dining safe is to wear masks, I don't see how it can be made safe, since as far as I know people can't eat or drink with masks on. Furthermore, at least in my own informal witnessing of people dining outdoors, the norm is for people to socialize at tables without masks, with only a couple of feet between them. I wouldn't call that social distancing either. That's two strikes against outdoor dining: lack of masks and lack of social distancing. I'd love to have asked that UCSF expert what she had to say about this. Something else to consider is that restaurants aren't only doing poorly because they're being locked down, but even when they're open many people are choosing (very sensibly, from my perspective) to avoid them. That won't be fixed by ending lockdowns. Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear someone tell me how many lives would be saved by allowing restaurants to open. Is it going to be anywhere near 3,000 in a single day? Somehow I very much doubt it.
- indecisive_user 6y ago
  I did answer the question you asked. The answer for "how many lives would be saved" and "how many lives would be lost" if outdoor dining is/isn't banned is the same; approximately zero based on the evidence. You also have to consider that even if all restaurant dining is banned, that doesn't mean people are suddenly going to stop eating together, they'll just do it elsewhere, somewhere that's probably much riskier than an outdoor patio such as a car or inside someone's house. >I don't see how it can be made safe, since as far as I know people can't eat or drink with masks on. Clearly the principles of harm reduction discussed in the article account for patrons eating without a mask on while they are seated at a table, but I suspect you already knew that. >I'd love to have asked that UCSF expert what she had to say about this. I'd love to hear what she would have to say as well. Though seeing as she has a long career studying infectious diseases and has studied covid extensively over the past year, I'm inclined to think she has a good understanding of the risks involved in certain activities, certainly beyond the anecdotal evidence of commenters on HN. >I'm still waiting to hear someone tell me how many lives would be saved by allowing restaurants to open. Is it going to be anywhere near 3,000 in a single day? Somehow I very much doubt it. I'm not sure why you're waiting for this answer. The number of deaths in a day(3000) is unrelated to restaurants allowing outdoor dining, so why are you comparing them? Closing restaurants will not bring that number down, based on the science we have available, but if you have evidence that suggests otherwise feel free to share.
- just-juan-post 6y ago
  You're here to save lives. Great. Do you want to start by banning all alcohol consumption, ban unprotected sex, or by making private vehicle ownership illegal? Banning abortion saves lives too. Also motorcycles. > ...but even when they're open many people are choosing (very sensibly, from my perspective) to avoid them We should just open them then if nobody is going to go to them. In one breath you say we need to restrict them and in the other breath you say nobody will go. "I don't like to go there any more, it's too crowded" -- Yogi Berra Another amazing feat of physics - like masks. When Covid cases go up it's because people aren't wearing masks. When the CDC and other international organizations record near-zero flu deaths for the year 2020 it's due to mask usage. Somehow both things are happening at the same time.

pmoriarty 6y ago

You didn't answer the question I asked, which was how many people's lives would be saved by keeping restaurants open. Instead you answered a question I didn't ask: how many lives would be lost by allowing outdoor dining. Two completely different questions. However, if one of the requirements for making outdoor dining safe is to wear masks, I don't see how it can be made safe, since as far as I know people can't eat or drink with masks on. Furthermore, at least in my own informal witnessing of people dining outdoors, the norm is for people to socialize at tables without masks, with only a couple of feet between them. I wouldn't call that social distancing either. That's two strikes against outdoor dining: lack of masks and lack of social distancing. I'd love to have asked that UCSF expert what she had to say about this. Something else to consider is that restaurants aren't only doing poorly because they're being locked down, but even when they're open many people are choosing (very sensibly, from my perspective) to avoid them. That won't be fixed by ending lockdowns. Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear someone tell me how many lives would be saved by allowing restaurants to open. Is it going to be anywhere near 3,000 in a single day? Somehow I very much doubt it.

indecisive_user 6y ago
I did answer the question you asked. The answer for "how many lives would be saved" and "how many lives would be lost" if outdoor dining is/isn't banned is the same; approximately zero based on the evidence. You also have to consider that even if all restaurant dining is banned, that doesn't mean people are suddenly going to stop eating together, they'll just do it elsewhere, somewhere that's probably much riskier than an outdoor patio such as a car or inside someone's house. >I don't see how it can be made safe, since as far as I know people can't eat or drink with masks on. Clearly the principles of harm reduction discussed in the article account for patrons eating without a mask on while they are seated at a table, but I suspect you already knew that. >I'd love to have asked that UCSF expert what she had to say about this. I'd love to hear what she would have to say as well. Though seeing as she has a long career studying infectious diseases and has studied covid extensively over the past year, I'm inclined to think she has a good understanding of the risks involved in certain activities, certainly beyond the anecdotal evidence of commenters on HN. >I'm still waiting to hear someone tell me how many lives would be saved by allowing restaurants to open. Is it going to be anywhere near 3,000 in a single day? Somehow I very much doubt it. I'm not sure why you're waiting for this answer. The number of deaths in a day(3000) is unrelated to restaurants allowing outdoor dining, so why are you comparing them? Closing restaurants will not bring that number down, based on the science we have available, but if you have evidence that suggests otherwise feel free to share.
just-juan-post 6y ago
You're here to save lives. Great. Do you want to start by banning all alcohol consumption, ban unprotected sex, or by making private vehicle ownership illegal? Banning abortion saves lives too. Also motorcycles. > ...but even when they're open many people are choosing (very sensibly, from my perspective) to avoid them We should just open them then if nobody is going to go to them. In one breath you say we need to restrict them and in the other breath you say nobody will go. "I don't like to go there any more, it's too crowded" -- Yogi Berra Another amazing feat of physics - like masks. When Covid cases go up it's because people aren't wearing masks. When the CDC and other international organizations record near-zero flu deaths for the year 2020 it's due to mask usage. Somehow both things are happening at the same time.