4 ms·

>Let's not also forget that the Chinese had been reading and writing for centuries before anyone else. Written Chinese isn't even as old as written Greek, much

by Bayart 6y ago

>Let's not also forget that the Chinese had been reading and writing for centuries before anyone else. Written Chinese isn't even as old as written Greek, much less the oldest written languages...

ravi-delia 6y ago
I suspect that in this case, a more reasonable interpretation of Chinese would be 'the people living in the area that is now China' rather than 'speakers of modern day Mandarin'.
jcranmer 6y ago
To put some hard numbers: The modern Greek alphabet (in shape) essentially dates back to ~5th century BC, with the alphabet itself largely originating about 9th century BC, although some letters were added, removed, or changed in the meantime. Classical Latin fully developed its alphabet about 1st century BC--we use this alphabet still today, although letters J and V were not added until the Renaissance. Its origins are perhaps about 7th century BC (with most of the letterforms being stable from its inception, although the inventory definitely changed a few times in the meantime). Modern Chinese script dates from around 2nd century AD, although the distinction between Simplified (1950s) and Traditional Chinese is greater than the distinction I've made between modern and original scripts for Greek and Latin. The history of modern Chinese script is a bit harder to trace than Western alphabets. Oracle bone script is dated to about 13th century BC, and the earliest scripts that are generally recognizable date to about 3rd century BC, and the intervening history is well outside my area of knowledge. By contrast, we know that Latin derives from Ancient Greek script, which itself derives from Phoenician, which is dated to ~11th century BC. Phoenician itself derives from Egyptian, itself dated to perhaps the 4th millennium BC, well before the Chinese region developed writing. Comparing to other regions, Mesoamerica appears to develop writing somewhere in the early 1st millennium BC, although the relationship between various Preclassic civilizations is very much in dispute. Andean civilizations develop quipu at least as early as the Wari civilization (late 1st millennium AD), although there is an artifact from Norte Chico (3rd millennium BC) that is arguably a quipu. Whether or not quipu is some kind of writing system is of course hotly debated. Indus Valley script develops in the 3rd millennium BC, but here again it's debated if this is actually a fully developed script. And of course, Sumerian cuneiform develops in the late 4th millennium BC, the oldest known true writing system. So, in short, Chinese script postdates Greek and Latin scripts by almost any metric you choose.
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by Bayart 6y ago

>Let's not also forget that the Chinese had been reading and writing for centuries before anyone else. Written Chinese isn't even as old as written Greek, much less the oldest written languages...

ravi-delia 6y ago

I suspect that in this case, a more reasonable interpretation of Chinese would be 'the people living in the area that is now China' rather than 'speakers of modern day Mandarin'.

jcranmer 6y ago

To put some hard numbers: The modern Greek alphabet (in shape) essentially dates back to ~5th century BC, with the alphabet itself largely originating about 9th century BC, although some letters were added, removed, or changed in the meantime. Classical Latin fully developed its alphabet about 1st century BC--we use this alphabet still today, although letters J and V were not added until the Renaissance. Its origins are perhaps about 7th century BC (with most of the letterforms being stable from its inception, although the inventory definitely changed a few times in the meantime). Modern Chinese script dates from around 2nd century AD, although the distinction between Simplified (1950s) and Traditional Chinese is greater than the distinction I've made between modern and original scripts for Greek and Latin. The history of modern Chinese script is a bit harder to trace than Western alphabets. Oracle bone script is dated to about 13th century BC, and the earliest scripts that are generally recognizable date to about 3rd century BC, and the intervening history is well outside my area of knowledge. By contrast, we know that Latin derives from Ancient Greek script, which itself derives from Phoenician, which is dated to ~11th century BC. Phoenician itself derives from Egyptian, itself dated to perhaps the 4th millennium BC, well before the Chinese region developed writing. Comparing to other regions, Mesoamerica appears to develop writing somewhere in the early 1st millennium BC, although the relationship between various Preclassic civilizations is very much in dispute. Andean civilizations develop quipu at least as early as the Wari civilization (late 1st millennium AD), although there is an artifact from Norte Chico (3rd millennium BC) that is arguably a quipu. Whether or not quipu is some kind of writing system is of course hotly debated. Indus Valley script develops in the 3rd millennium BC, but here again it's debated if this is actually a fully developed script. And of course, Sumerian cuneiform develops in the late 4th millennium BC, the oldest known true writing system. So, in short, Chinese script postdates Greek and Latin scripts by almost any metric you choose.

deleted 6y ago
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