5 ms·

> It is a tale that should dismantle our Eurocentric view of mathematics, shine a spotlight on the Islamic world’s scientific achievements Well, the word 'alge

> It is a tale that should dismantle our Eurocentric view of mathematics, shine a spotlight on the Islamic world’s scientific achievements Well, the word 'algebra' would suggest credit is being given to the Arab world. Let's not also forget that the Chinese had been reading and writing for centuries before anyone else.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ncmncm 6y ago
The people who invented algebra and, indeed, science, were absolutely not Arabic. They were Persians and Egyptians working as Islamic scholars in an explicitly Islamic tradition. That Islamic scholarship has fallen so far since their time is a great tragedy.
- secondcoming 6y ago
  Are you not contradicting your previous post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25318387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25318387
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    Don't see how. They wrote in Arabic, but were not themselves Arabs. Arabic, the language, was carried with Islam out of Arabia to the entire Indian Ocean seacoast, and well inland most places.
- didibus 6y ago
  This is what I gather as well from a bit of reading. It seems that most innovation in mathematics of the time came from Persian, but obviously this then became part of Islamic empire, and it seems under those for a time they were still friendly to people continuing to learn about and advance those pre-islamic sciences. The Madrasas might have helped fund for further people to learn about and push those sciences, so the institutions put in place during some of the Islamic empires also do seem to have helped invest in them. > Muslims distinguished disciplines inherited from pre-Islamic civilizations, such as philosophy and medicine, which they called "sciences of the ancients" or "rational sciences", from Islamic religious sciences.[50] Sciences of the former type flourished for several centuries, and their transmission formed part of the educational framework in classical and medieval Islam.[50] In some cases, they were supported by institutions such as the House of Wisdom in Baghdad, but more often they were transmitted informally from teacher to student. This has to be commended at least, I'm not sure all strongly religious empires supported teaching people non-religious sciences/philosophies and invested in their further study.
Bayart 6y ago
>Let's not also forget that the Chinese had been reading and writing for centuries before anyone else. Written Chinese isn't even as old as written Greek, much less the oldest written languages...
- ravi-delia 6y ago
  I suspect that in this case, a more reasonable interpretation of Chinese would be 'the people living in the area that is now China' rather than 'speakers of modern day Mandarin'.
- jcranmer 6y ago
  To put some hard numbers: The modern Greek alphabet (in shape) essentially dates back to ~5th century BC, with the alphabet itself largely originating about 9th century BC, although some letters were added, removed, or changed in the meantime. Classical Latin fully developed its alphabet about 1st century BC--we use this alphabet still today, although letters J and V were not added until the Renaissance. Its origins are perhaps about 7th century BC (with most of the letterforms being stable from its inception, although the inventory definitely changed a few times in the meantime). Modern Chinese script dates from around 2nd century AD, although the distinction between Simplified (1950s) and Traditional Chinese is greater than the distinction I've made between modern and original scripts for Greek and Latin. The history of modern Chinese script is a bit harder to trace than Western alphabets. Oracle bone script is dated to about 13th century BC, and the earliest scripts that are generally recognizable date to about 3rd century BC, and the intervening history is well outside my area of knowledge. By contrast, we know that Latin derives from Ancient Greek script, which itself derives from Phoenician, which is dated to ~11th century BC. Phoenician itself derives from Egyptian, itself dated to perhaps the 4th millennium BC, well before the Chinese region developed writing. Comparing to other regions, Mesoamerica appears to develop writing somewhere in the early 1st millennium BC, although the relationship between various Preclassic civilizations is very much in dispute. Andean civilizations develop quipu at least as early as the Wari civilization (late 1st millennium AD), although there is an artifact from Norte Chico (3rd millennium BC) that is arguably a quipu. Whether or not quipu is some kind of writing system is of course hotly debated. Indus Valley script develops in the 3rd millennium BC, but here again it's debated if this is actually a fully developed script. And of course, Sumerian cuneiform develops in the late 4th millennium BC, the oldest known true writing system. So, in short, Chinese script postdates Greek and Latin scripts by almost any metric you choose.
vram22 6y ago
>Well, the word 'algebra' would suggest credit is being given to the Arab world. Also 'algorithm', 'alchemy' and 'alcohol', IIRC, and maybe other words too.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ncmncm 6y ago

The people who invented algebra and, indeed, science, were absolutely not Arabic. They were Persians and Egyptians working as Islamic scholars in an explicitly Islamic tradition. That Islamic scholarship has fallen so far since their time is a great tragedy.

secondcoming 6y ago
Are you not contradicting your previous post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25318387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25318387
- ncmncm 6y ago
  Don't see how. They wrote in Arabic, but were not themselves Arabs. Arabic, the language, was carried with Islam out of Arabia to the entire Indian Ocean seacoast, and well inland most places.
didibus 6y ago
This is what I gather as well from a bit of reading. It seems that most innovation in mathematics of the time came from Persian, but obviously this then became part of Islamic empire, and it seems under those for a time they were still friendly to people continuing to learn about and advance those pre-islamic sciences. The Madrasas might have helped fund for further people to learn about and push those sciences, so the institutions put in place during some of the Islamic empires also do seem to have helped invest in them. > Muslims distinguished disciplines inherited from pre-Islamic civilizations, such as philosophy and medicine, which they called "sciences of the ancients" or "rational sciences", from Islamic religious sciences.[50] Sciences of the former type flourished for several centuries, and their transmission formed part of the educational framework in classical and medieval Islam.[50] In some cases, they were supported by institutions such as the House of Wisdom in Baghdad, but more often they were transmitted informally from teacher to student. This has to be commended at least, I'm not sure all strongly religious empires supported teaching people non-religious sciences/philosophies and invested in their further study.

Bayart 6y ago

>Let's not also forget that the Chinese had been reading and writing for centuries before anyone else. Written Chinese isn't even as old as written Greek, much less the oldest written languages...

ravi-delia 6y ago
I suspect that in this case, a more reasonable interpretation of Chinese would be 'the people living in the area that is now China' rather than 'speakers of modern day Mandarin'.
jcranmer 6y ago
To put some hard numbers: The modern Greek alphabet (in shape) essentially dates back to ~5th century BC, with the alphabet itself largely originating about 9th century BC, although some letters were added, removed, or changed in the meantime. Classical Latin fully developed its alphabet about 1st century BC--we use this alphabet still today, although letters J and V were not added until the Renaissance. Its origins are perhaps about 7th century BC (with most of the letterforms being stable from its inception, although the inventory definitely changed a few times in the meantime). Modern Chinese script dates from around 2nd century AD, although the distinction between Simplified (1950s) and Traditional Chinese is greater than the distinction I've made between modern and original scripts for Greek and Latin. The history of modern Chinese script is a bit harder to trace than Western alphabets. Oracle bone script is dated to about 13th century BC, and the earliest scripts that are generally recognizable date to about 3rd century BC, and the intervening history is well outside my area of knowledge. By contrast, we know that Latin derives from Ancient Greek script, which itself derives from Phoenician, which is dated to ~11th century BC. Phoenician itself derives from Egyptian, itself dated to perhaps the 4th millennium BC, well before the Chinese region developed writing. Comparing to other regions, Mesoamerica appears to develop writing somewhere in the early 1st millennium BC, although the relationship between various Preclassic civilizations is very much in dispute. Andean civilizations develop quipu at least as early as the Wari civilization (late 1st millennium AD), although there is an artifact from Norte Chico (3rd millennium BC) that is arguably a quipu. Whether or not quipu is some kind of writing system is of course hotly debated. Indus Valley script develops in the 3rd millennium BC, but here again it's debated if this is actually a fully developed script. And of course, Sumerian cuneiform develops in the late 4th millennium BC, the oldest known true writing system. So, in short, Chinese script postdates Greek and Latin scripts by almost any metric you choose.

vram22 6y ago

>Well, the word 'algebra' would suggest credit is being given to the Arab world. Also 'algorithm', 'alchemy' and 'alcohol', IIRC, and maybe other words too.