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Back then, an education was limited to basic math and arithmetic for business, a knowledge of Arabic literature and a study of the Quran, so it's very likely th

Back then, an education was limited to basic math and arithmetic for business, a knowledge of Arabic literature and a study of the Quran, so it's very likely that people were very educated in the cities back then. Once the Abbasid Empire fell (the Islamic Golden Age period), none of the successor civilizations pursued such studies further - and none of them were Arabian empires, so that left the Arab world to stagnate. Malaysia had a strong Chinese influence coupled with an Islamic tradition, so they most certainly spoke a lot of Arabic before Dutch rule. Even during Dutch rule, Arabic was used to announce royal decrees, until Malay took over with a sense of national identity. As for Pakistan, the Western provinces are largely influenced by Afghan-Iranian culture (Pashto and Baluchi), while places like Sindh and Punjab had large Hindu populations before independence. So the study of Arabic wasn't as actively encouraged except for religious purposes. On the contrary, many Pakistanis today still stick to regional dialects and languages such as Pashto, Sindhi, Kashmiri and Punjabi, even though the official language is Urdu. Such non uniformity makes things way harder.

selimthegrim 6y ago
What makes me mad is my mom learned about Ibn Shatir in Damascus at school in Karachi but not one word about al Biruni measuring circumference of Earth at Nandana in Punjab or say Bakhshali manuscript.
barry-cotter 6y ago
> Once the Abbasid Empire fell (the Islamic Golden Age period), none of the successor civilizations pursued such studies further - and none of them were Arabian empires, so that left the Arab world to stagnate. This might give the misleading impression that Arabs were a large part of the intellectual ferment of the Islamic Golden Age. They got it started by forming an enormous new empire but it was the work of their subjects, not themselves. Same with the Mongols. > It is notable that most of the intellectuals who were patronized and shone under the Abbassids in the decades after 800 A.D. were not Muslim Arabs. There were even some oddball characters, such as Tabit ibn Qurra, a pagan Syrian from Haran. One reason al-Kindi was the “Philosopher of the Arabs” is that he was a tribal Arab. But more typical were Iranians such as Avicenna and al-Razi. If you accept S. Frederick Starr’s argument in Lost Enlightenment and Christopher Beckwith’s in Warriors of the Cloisters Iranians disproportionately from Turan, modern Central Asia, were particularly influential in shaping the high culture and intellectual tone of the world of Islam after 800 A.D. https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/07/05/how-the-arabs-created-the-iranian-golden-age/ https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/07/05/how-the-arabs-crea...
- fakedang 6y ago
  Wholly agree. A lot of work was done by Persians and North Africans. But the difference between the Abbasid and the Ottoman/Mughal/Safavids was that the Abbasid Empire encouraged such studies, since they were a relatively liberal kind. Except in theological matters.
dwohnitmok 6y ago
> Back then, an education was limited to basic math and arithmetic for business, a knowledge of Arabic literature and a study of the Quran, so it's very likely that people were very educated in the cities back then. My point is that this is still legally mandated as the standard in e.g. Pakistan and Arabic literacy rates (even in cities I think) still aren't very high. Just reading the Pakistani constitution I would've assumed high Arabic literacy rates which isn't the case. I think government decrees are weak evidence in favor of higher literacy rates, but I don't think it's enough to conclude "with near certainty" that literacy rates among the general populace would've been significantly higher as a result. > Even during Dutch rule, Arabic was used to announce royal decrees, until Malay took over with a sense of national identity. An analogous situation held in Medieval Japan and Korea with respect to Classical Chinese and IIRC scholars don't think the general population was very literate in Classical Chinese as a result.
- fakedang 6y ago
  Pakistan wasn't part of the Arab World proper, even in those times. My comment specifically pertained to Arabic in the Arab World in those times. Pakistan wasn't even Muslim at the time, save for Western Sindh, and rule was largely relegated to Brahmin administrators.

selimthegrim 6y ago

What makes me mad is my mom learned about Ibn Shatir in Damascus at school in Karachi but not one word about al Biruni measuring circumference of Earth at Nandana in Punjab or say Bakhshali manuscript.

barry-cotter 6y ago

> Once the Abbasid Empire fell (the Islamic Golden Age period), none of the successor civilizations pursued such studies further - and none of them were Arabian empires, so that left the Arab world to stagnate. This might give the misleading impression that Arabs were a large part of the intellectual ferment of the Islamic Golden Age. They got it started by forming an enormous new empire but it was the work of their subjects, not themselves. Same with the Mongols. > It is notable that most of the intellectuals who were patronized and shone under the Abbassids in the decades after 800 A.D. were not Muslim Arabs. There were even some oddball characters, such as Tabit ibn Qurra, a pagan Syrian from Haran. One reason al-Kindi was the “Philosopher of the Arabs” is that he was a tribal Arab. But more typical were Iranians such as Avicenna and al-Razi. If you accept S. Frederick Starr’s argument in Lost Enlightenment and Christopher Beckwith’s in Warriors of the Cloisters Iranians disproportionately from Turan, modern Central Asia, were particularly influential in shaping the high culture and intellectual tone of the world of Islam after 800 A.D. https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/07/05/how-the-arabs-created-the-iranian-golden-age/ https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/07/05/how-the-arabs-crea...

fakedang 6y ago
Wholly agree. A lot of work was done by Persians and North Africans. But the difference between the Abbasid and the Ottoman/Mughal/Safavids was that the Abbasid Empire encouraged such studies, since they were a relatively liberal kind. Except in theological matters.

dwohnitmok 6y ago

> Back then, an education was limited to basic math and arithmetic for business, a knowledge of Arabic literature and a study of the Quran, so it's very likely that people were very educated in the cities back then. My point is that this is still legally mandated as the standard in e.g. Pakistan and Arabic literacy rates (even in cities I think) still aren't very high. Just reading the Pakistani constitution I would've assumed high Arabic literacy rates which isn't the case. I think government decrees are weak evidence in favor of higher literacy rates, but I don't think it's enough to conclude "with near certainty" that literacy rates among the general populace would've been significantly higher as a result. > Even during Dutch rule, Arabic was used to announce royal decrees, until Malay took over with a sense of national identity. An analogous situation held in Medieval Japan and Korea with respect to Classical Chinese and IIRC scholars don't think the general population was very literate in Classical Chinese as a result.

fakedang 6y ago
Pakistan wasn't part of the Arab World proper, even in those times. My comment specifically pertained to Arabic in the Arab World in those times. Pakistan wasn't even Muslim at the time, save for Western Sindh, and rule was largely relegated to Brahmin administrators.