6 ms·

Cool to see a study like this, but of course it's not meant to be a ground-breaking new discovery. It's well-studied that abusive, grandiose people are people

Cool to see a study like this, but of course it's not meant to be a ground-breaking new discovery. It's well-studied that abusive, grandiose people are people with intense anxiety that are very difficult to heal because of their grandiosity (see narcissists) There are so many studies on this topic all trying to find the right words hoping to finally convince us: anxious/grandiose people will never change inside (without years-long therapy), they will only change their tactics once they've been found out. So if this happens in a work environment fire them immediately once discovered, or leave your company if you can't fire them - you will not find a way to fix these people or learn how to cope with them yourself just do it. Rewrote the first paragraph since it sucked.

enkid 6y ago
I've never seen these studies claiming anxious people tend to be immoral in their behaviors at work. Do you have a link? My personal intuition is that "grandiose" and "anxious" people are quite distinct groups with very distinct behaviors.
- ownagefool 6y ago
  There's probably an overlap, i.e. your dickhead boss probably has a bunch of reasons being immoral is the greater good, lesser evil, or ends justifies the means. Of course, some people seem to just be dicks with nary a care in the world, but in my experience, most openly anxious folks are nice. They tend to be too anxious not to be. Personally, I guess I'm an anxious person _sometimes_ ( can panic attack but tend to forget about it if I don't think about it ) and it doesn't make me act dishonest or an asshole. Not even saying I've never been an asshole, but stabbing someone in the back just isn't my style and goes against my working class Scottish stoic upbringing. As does being openly anxious, it's not something I tell folks.
- skim_milk 6y ago
  >anxious people tend to be immoral in their behaviors at work I'm not claiming that >My personal intuition is that "grandiose" and "anxious" people are quite distinct groups with very distinct behaviors This is correct. But I was trying to refer to the link between grandiosity and depression when anxiety is the underlying cause (which I really didn't need to bring up in the original comment, don't know why I wrote that). I mainly had this book in mind when I was typing my comment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_(psychologist)#The_Drama_of_the_Gifted_Child_(Das_Drama_des_begabten_Kindes,_1979) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_(psychologist)#Th... which was I guess the first book to link grandiosity and depression if you want to look into that.
- rurban 6y ago
  I have an anxious manager in my organization, and he is the best manager by far. No immoralities, a bit too much yes-saying, but also occasional no's. The anxiety could be treated fairly easily I heard, but he didn't do it so far. Narcissists are the problematic ones, not anxious ones.
bigbubba 6y ago
A policy of firing people with anxiety issues seems particularly cruel, almost designed to vindicate their feelings of anxiety.
whatshisface 6y ago
>anxious/grandiose You mean narcissistic? Anxiety gives people panic attacks when they see a water glass too close to the edge of a table, I think you're talking about grandiose narcissism. It fits your description of "crippling shame and fear, combined with grandiosity."
- P_I_Staker 6y ago
  Anxiety can cause many behaviors. Not everyone reacts the same when they’re freaking out. I don’t think it necessarily manifests in singular intense “events”. People can be generally be on edge and scared all day. This can cause relationship problems. Some men have trouble expressing emotions beyond anger.
andi999 6y ago
Why fire them? Put them in sales.
confidantlake 6y ago
>So, anxious people (depressed or grandiose) feel they have to lie, manipulate, abuse to stay where they are at As someone who has anxiety and knows several people with anxiety, this has not been my experience at all. Like I am probably in a lower paying job than I should be despite my performance because I am too anxious to ask for a raise or interview around. I am not good enough socially to manipulate people, if I had those skills I would probably not be anxious. I have learned at a very young age to treat people very well because I need long term relationships, I can't quickly charm someone new if destroy my current relationships. My anxiety makes my sensitive not just to criticism but toward the feelings of others. Some anxious people are assholes just like some charming people are. But most are just normal people trying to play the hand they were dealt.
- skim_milk 6y ago
  I don't know why I wrote the first paragraph, I was groggy and I can't comprehend what I was thinking originally. The point I was trying to make is that lay people cannot heal intense anxiety, and workplace abuses are evidence of that intense anxiety. So HR should always immediately fire workplace abusers simply on the fact that the abuser cannot be healed by HR and they will not improve despite their best efforts, which seems to be the conclusion that all the scientific papers on abusers are trying to help us go towards. I had an abusive boss in the past and their intense anxiety/insecurity/whatever you call it is maddening.
  - eska 6y ago
    You're not actually responding to what people are saying to you. You: 1. anxiety causes people to manipulate, lie, etc. 2. anxiety cannot be cured quickly => it's best to fire them instead of trying to "heal" them. Others to you: no, anxiety does not (necessarily) cause people to manipulate, lie, etc., so your conclusion is wrong. You're just repeating yourself..
    - Gupie 6y ago
      He is not saying that people with anxiety are abusive he is saying that abusive people are often have anxiety, i.e. a subset of anxious people try to cope with their anxiety by being grandiose and abusing.
an_opabinia 6y ago
> anxious/grandiose people will never change inside (without years-long therapy)... I'm not talking about anxiety like a normal person normally experiences (you) But writing comments on the Internet is these people's therapy.
heavyset_go 6y ago
Symptoms of anxiety disorders do not include lying, manipulating, or abuse. You're pathologizing shitty behavior when the truth is that some people do bad things for reasons that have nothing to do with mental illness.
- skim_milk 6y ago
  I'm trying to establish the link between shitty behavior and intense anxiety - which I assume most people in the mental health world would agree that intense feelings of anxiety underlie most bad behavior. I'm not saying if you've ever felt anxious you need to take all the drugs. But this type of intense anxiety, from which most workplace abuses manifest, cannot be easily healed. So if you see abuses at your company, fire the offender or leave. Don't let HR think they can simply heal the abuser it won't happen as every study has shown.
  - hitekker 6y ago
    > most people in the mental health world would agree that intense feelings of anxiety underlie most bad behavior That is a huge assumption to make, without any supporting evidence. > But intense anxiety, from which most workplace abuses manifest.. I agree with the GP. You can't pseudo-intellectually rationalize all malice as mental illness.
    - skim_milk 6y ago
      Ok. I believe if you abuse your workers, you are unhealthy, you cannot be healed easily by HR, and I will fire you/not work for you (this paper is evidence of that this belief is scientific truth, but let's just say it's a belief). I believe if you avoid abusive people in life and at work you will live a happier life. I guess I will have to make a religion out of avoiding abusive people so I can't be criticized for it?
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    This is a common myth about abuse. Abusers act they way they do because their behavior gets them what they want, not because they're driven to abuse by mental illness. Some abusers would like you to believe that, however, because it shifts the blame for their behavior away from them and ultimately gets them what they want.
P_I_Staker 6y ago
So fire people with mental illness, once it’s “discovered”? You say that like it’s some monstrous character fault. Conflict in the workplace happens, including things that crop up due to people’s neuroses. You’d have to fire most people. I agree you should distance from anyone that appears dishonest or abusive, but that has nothing to do with mental illness. People that just do it to get what they want are if anything worse.
- skim_milk 6y ago
  I have edited the comment to be sure no one interprets it as I am attacking them. The point is to fire narcissistic-type workplace abusers because their personality and behavior is resilient to change as this study, and nearly all studies, show. The workplace will be much better.
erikpukinskis 6y ago
In the abstract they do say explicitly that they broke new ground with the study.

enkid 6y ago

I've never seen these studies claiming anxious people tend to be immoral in their behaviors at work. Do you have a link? My personal intuition is that "grandiose" and "anxious" people are quite distinct groups with very distinct behaviors.

ownagefool 6y ago
There's probably an overlap, i.e. your dickhead boss probably has a bunch of reasons being immoral is the greater good, lesser evil, or ends justifies the means. Of course, some people seem to just be dicks with nary a care in the world, but in my experience, most openly anxious folks are nice. They tend to be too anxious not to be. Personally, I guess I'm an anxious person _sometimes_ ( can panic attack but tend to forget about it if I don't think about it ) and it doesn't make me act dishonest or an asshole. Not even saying I've never been an asshole, but stabbing someone in the back just isn't my style and goes against my working class Scottish stoic upbringing. As does being openly anxious, it's not something I tell folks.
skim_milk 6y ago
>anxious people tend to be immoral in their behaviors at work I'm not claiming that >My personal intuition is that "grandiose" and "anxious" people are quite distinct groups with very distinct behaviors This is correct. But I was trying to refer to the link between grandiosity and depression when anxiety is the underlying cause (which I really didn't need to bring up in the original comment, don't know why I wrote that). I mainly had this book in mind when I was typing my comment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_(psychologist)#The_Drama_of_the_Gifted_Child_(Das_Drama_des_begabten_Kindes,_1979) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_(psychologist)#Th... which was I guess the first book to link grandiosity and depression if you want to look into that.
rurban 6y ago
I have an anxious manager in my organization, and he is the best manager by far. No immoralities, a bit too much yes-saying, but also occasional no's. The anxiety could be treated fairly easily I heard, but he didn't do it so far. Narcissists are the problematic ones, not anxious ones.

bigbubba 6y ago

A policy of firing people with anxiety issues seems particularly cruel, almost designed to vindicate their feelings of anxiety.

whatshisface 6y ago

>anxious/grandiose You mean narcissistic? Anxiety gives people panic attacks when they see a water glass too close to the edge of a table, I think you're talking about grandiose narcissism. It fits your description of "crippling shame and fear, combined with grandiosity."

P_I_Staker 6y ago
Anxiety can cause many behaviors. Not everyone reacts the same when they’re freaking out. I don’t think it necessarily manifests in singular intense “events”. People can be generally be on edge and scared all day. This can cause relationship problems. Some men have trouble expressing emotions beyond anger.

andi999 6y ago

Why fire them? Put them in sales.

confidantlake 6y ago

>So, anxious people (depressed or grandiose) feel they have to lie, manipulate, abuse to stay where they are at As someone who has anxiety and knows several people with anxiety, this has not been my experience at all. Like I am probably in a lower paying job than I should be despite my performance because I am too anxious to ask for a raise or interview around. I am not good enough socially to manipulate people, if I had those skills I would probably not be anxious. I have learned at a very young age to treat people very well because I need long term relationships, I can't quickly charm someone new if destroy my current relationships. My anxiety makes my sensitive not just to criticism but toward the feelings of others. Some anxious people are assholes just like some charming people are. But most are just normal people trying to play the hand they were dealt.

skim_milk 6y ago
I don't know why I wrote the first paragraph, I was groggy and I can't comprehend what I was thinking originally. The point I was trying to make is that lay people cannot heal intense anxiety, and workplace abuses are evidence of that intense anxiety. So HR should always immediately fire workplace abusers simply on the fact that the abuser cannot be healed by HR and they will not improve despite their best efforts, which seems to be the conclusion that all the scientific papers on abusers are trying to help us go towards. I had an abusive boss in the past and their intense anxiety/insecurity/whatever you call it is maddening.
- eska 6y ago
  You're not actually responding to what people are saying to you. You: 1. anxiety causes people to manipulate, lie, etc. 2. anxiety cannot be cured quickly => it's best to fire them instead of trying to "heal" them. Others to you: no, anxiety does not (necessarily) cause people to manipulate, lie, etc., so your conclusion is wrong. You're just repeating yourself..
  - Gupie 6y ago
    He is not saying that people with anxiety are abusive he is saying that abusive people are often have anxiety, i.e. a subset of anxious people try to cope with their anxiety by being grandiose and abusing.

an_opabinia 6y ago

> anxious/grandiose people will never change inside (without years-long therapy)... I'm not talking about anxiety like a normal person normally experiences (you) But writing comments on the Internet is these people's therapy.

heavyset_go 6y ago

Symptoms of anxiety disorders do not include lying, manipulating, or abuse. You're pathologizing shitty behavior when the truth is that some people do bad things for reasons that have nothing to do with mental illness.

skim_milk 6y ago
I'm trying to establish the link between shitty behavior and intense anxiety - which I assume most people in the mental health world would agree that intense feelings of anxiety underlie most bad behavior. I'm not saying if you've ever felt anxious you need to take all the drugs. But this type of intense anxiety, from which most workplace abuses manifest, cannot be easily healed. So if you see abuses at your company, fire the offender or leave. Don't let HR think they can simply heal the abuser it won't happen as every study has shown.
- hitekker 6y ago
  > most people in the mental health world would agree that intense feelings of anxiety underlie most bad behavior That is a huge assumption to make, without any supporting evidence. > But intense anxiety, from which most workplace abuses manifest.. I agree with the GP. You can't pseudo-intellectually rationalize all malice as mental illness.
  - skim_milk 6y ago
    Ok. I believe if you abuse your workers, you are unhealthy, you cannot be healed easily by HR, and I will fire you/not work for you (this paper is evidence of that this belief is scientific truth, but let's just say it's a belief). I believe if you avoid abusive people in life and at work you will live a happier life. I guess I will have to make a religion out of avoiding abusive people so I can't be criticized for it?
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  This is a common myth about abuse. Abusers act they way they do because their behavior gets them what they want, not because they're driven to abuse by mental illness. Some abusers would like you to believe that, however, because it shifts the blame for their behavior away from them and ultimately gets them what they want.

P_I_Staker 6y ago

So fire people with mental illness, once it’s “discovered”? You say that like it’s some monstrous character fault. Conflict in the workplace happens, including things that crop up due to people’s neuroses. You’d have to fire most people. I agree you should distance from anyone that appears dishonest or abusive, but that has nothing to do with mental illness. People that just do it to get what they want are if anything worse.

skim_milk 6y ago
I have edited the comment to be sure no one interprets it as I am attacking them. The point is to fire narcissistic-type workplace abusers because their personality and behavior is resilient to change as this study, and nearly all studies, show. The workplace will be much better.

erikpukinskis 6y ago

In the abstract they do say explicitly that they broke new ground with the study.