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I imagine programmers who do not place a high value on the impact that their tools have on their ability to think through problems effectively. I am not saying

I imagine programmers who do not place a high value on the impact that their tools have on their ability to think through problems effectively. I am not saying that you are dumb. I am saying that your values clash with my needs. This clash is so strong that I predict that if I again try to program professionally in php and its frameworks, the interaction would again have a disastrous impact on my mental health, my livelihood, and my marriage. ----------------------------------- Let's suppose you enjoyed baking bread, but someone rejected your work and told you that gluten gives them terrible intestinal pain. You would have a choice: 1. Conclude they're being overdramatic and be offended by their rejection. 2. Believe their self assessment, move on, and continue with your craft. ----------------------------------- (They would have a similar choice whether or not to come into a threat about baking and yell at people about gluten)

kingdomcome50 6y ago
> This clash is so strong that I predict that if I again try to program professionally in php and its frameworks, the interaction would again have a disastrous impact on my mental health, my livelihood, and my marriage > Let's suppose you enjoyed baking bread, but someone rejected your work and told you that gluten gives them terrible intestinal pain Both these examples are ones where the problem isn't the tool, rather, the person using it. It's not really PHP (or the bread) being critiqued is it?
- afarrell 6y ago
  The problem is the interaction. ---------------- If an RJ45 connector won't fit into a USB-A slot, what is the problem? A. The RJ45 connector B. The USB-A slot C. The action of trying to fit one to the other ---------------- If a straight man is married to a lesbian and their sex life is terrible, what is the problem? A. The man B. The woman C. The attempt to force a sexual relationship over a friendship
  - kingdomcome50 6y ago
    Right. PHP is not the problem. Nor is the bread, or the connectors, or the husband/wife. That is exactly my point - you are leveling a criticism at yourself and your own inability to use a tool. This is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself or the other practitioners who choose to use it. It is therefore a bit offensive that the conclusion you draw is that developers who use PHP must have a deficit in their ability to work through problems. The “problems” do not change based on which language is chosen to solve them. That is, if you actually understand the “problems” in the first place...
    - afarrell 6y ago
      > It is therefore a bit offensive that the conclusion you draw is that developers who use PHP must have a deficit in their ability to work through problems. That is distinctly and meaningfully different from what I said. I did not say PHP developers have a deficit. I'm saying the PHP community has certain values and approaches problems with a certain perspective. I see PHP developers as those whose perspective does not highly value the interaction between how a tool is shaped and its users ability to use the tool to think through problems. A programmer with this perspective might say that a tool's usability in a context is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself or the community of other practitioners who choose to use it.
      - kingdomcome50 6y ago
        > I'm saying the PHP community has certain values and approaches problems with a certain perspective What are those values and what is that perspective? Your argument is getting rather hand-wavy. I'm not entirely sure what I would be arguing if I attempted to disagree. Without a more concrete formulation my current hypothesis is that you are simply disguising your ignorance as projection.
        afarrell 6y ago
        If you attempted to disagree, you would have to argue one of the following: A. The following is not a common perspective among the PHP community: "Problems do not change based on the language chosen to solve them. Inability to use a tool is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself." B. That perspective has absolutely zero impact whatsoever on the choices of tooling, frameworks, automated tests, and code found in an unknown team's PHP codebase. C. Whatever impact that perspective does have on the differences between a Python codebase and a PHP codebase will not meaningfully impact the productivity of /u/afarrell. D. Therefore, it cannot be the right personal choice for /u/afarrell or another developer to avoid PHP. Do not leave money on the table for /u/kingdomcome50 or /u/tux. ------------------------------------------ If your response to this is "Huh? Sure, whatever. Different people are different. Make your own personal choices. It's a free country." then that is 80% of my point. The other 20% is: Lack of self-knowledge and the inability to give/take a rejection will lead you to do things that are not healthy for you. Don't eat lasagna if you're lactose intolerant. Can we please stop acting like 'I do not want to write code in X language' is a personal attack on the intelligence of those who _do_ work in X language?

kingdomcome50 6y ago

> This clash is so strong that I predict that if I again try to program professionally in php and its frameworks, the interaction would again have a disastrous impact on my mental health, my livelihood, and my marriage > Let's suppose you enjoyed baking bread, but someone rejected your work and told you that gluten gives them terrible intestinal pain Both these examples are ones where the problem isn't the tool, rather, the person using it. It's not really PHP (or the bread) being critiqued is it?

afarrell 6y ago
The problem is the interaction. ---------------- If an RJ45 connector won't fit into a USB-A slot, what is the problem? A. The RJ45 connector B. The USB-A slot C. The action of trying to fit one to the other ---------------- If a straight man is married to a lesbian and their sex life is terrible, what is the problem? A. The man B. The woman C. The attempt to force a sexual relationship over a friendship
- kingdomcome50 6y ago
  Right. PHP is not the problem. Nor is the bread, or the connectors, or the husband/wife. That is exactly my point - you are leveling a criticism at yourself and your own inability to use a tool. This is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself or the other practitioners who choose to use it. It is therefore a bit offensive that the conclusion you draw is that developers who use PHP must have a deficit in their ability to work through problems. The “problems” do not change based on which language is chosen to solve them. That is, if you actually understand the “problems” in the first place...
  - afarrell 6y ago
    > It is therefore a bit offensive that the conclusion you draw is that developers who use PHP must have a deficit in their ability to work through problems. That is distinctly and meaningfully different from what I said. I did not say PHP developers have a deficit. I'm saying the PHP community has certain values and approaches problems with a certain perspective. I see PHP developers as those whose perspective does not highly value the interaction between how a tool is shaped and its users ability to use the tool to think through problems. A programmer with this perspective might say that a tool's usability in a context is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself or the community of other practitioners who choose to use it.
    - kingdomcome50 6y ago
      > I'm saying the PHP community has certain values and approaches problems with a certain perspective What are those values and what is that perspective? Your argument is getting rather hand-wavy. I'm not entirely sure what I would be arguing if I attempted to disagree. Without a more concrete formulation my current hypothesis is that you are simply disguising your ignorance as projection.
      - afarrell 6y ago
        If you attempted to disagree, you would have to argue one of the following: A. The following is not a common perspective among the PHP community: "Problems do not change based on the language chosen to solve them. Inability to use a tool is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself." B. That perspective has absolutely zero impact whatsoever on the choices of tooling, frameworks, automated tests, and code found in an unknown team's PHP codebase. C. Whatever impact that perspective does have on the differences between a Python codebase and a PHP codebase will not meaningfully impact the productivity of /u/afarrell. D. Therefore, it cannot be the right personal choice for /u/afarrell or another developer to avoid PHP. Do not leave money on the table for /u/kingdomcome50 or /u/tux. ------------------------------------------ If your response to this is "Huh? Sure, whatever. Different people are different. Make your own personal choices. It's a free country." then that is 80% of my point. The other 20% is: Lack of self-knowledge and the inability to give/take a rejection will lead you to do things that are not healthy for you. Don't eat lasagna if you're lactose intolerant. Can we please stop acting like 'I do not want to write code in X language' is a personal attack on the intelligence of those who _do_ work in X language?