5 ms·

algorithm is biased => we should fix it is reasonable, but also a misrepresentation of the argument that this whole thread is about, which is more along the lin

by tomp 6y ago

algorithm is biased => we should fix it is reasonable, but also a misrepresentation of the argument that this whole thread is about, which is more along the lines of algorithm is biased => researchers are racist => the company that employs them is racist => the whole country is racist which definitely is driven more by ideology than reason. I’m happy about people viewing the world differently and having an honest, good-faith discussion about the issues. But I’ll criticise intellectually dishonest arguments, like the moat-and-bailey you just pulled here.

dash2 6y ago
OK, dude - if you really think I'm arguing in bad faith, I will just leave you to it!
mschuster91 6y ago
> researchers are racist I never argued for that. My point is that researchers (as well as everyone!) have biases, which may manifest in the end as racism or other forms of discriminations. To prevent these biases from manifesting, (AI) ethics experts are needed as oversight. > the company that employs them is racist To take the example of the "racist soap dispenser" again: while the individual people who have developed it may not have been racist, they have failed to think outside their biases and ask themselves "can people with non-white skin use the product?". Also, management has failed here, because more diverse staff would have resulted in at least one internal test candidate of color noticing "hey, I can't get soap!". The result of this lack of diversity and out-of-the-ordinary thinking was that a person of color was rightfully offended at not being dispensed soap. Therefore, the company acted racist even if it never intended to do so. > the whole country is racist Just short of half of the country recently elected a President who openly spouted white-supremacist conspiracy theories. For half the people in the US racism is not a dealbreaker for the highest office it has to offer!
- dash2 6y ago
  > Just short of half of the country recently elected a President who openly spouted white-supremacist conspiracy theories. For half the people in the US racism is not a dealbreaker for the highest office it has to offer! ... which is a bit different from saying that half the country is racist. Perhaps they thought the alternative was worse.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Just short of half of the country recently elected a President who openly spouted white-supremacist conspiracy theories. He was elected by the votes of ~27% of eligible voters, and about ~20% of the population, not “just short of half the country”. You could say it was a little less than half the people who felt it is worthwhile to vote in a system where votes matter so little that getting the most of them doesn't mean you win, but then the story is about alienation from the electoral system more than support or even indifference to racism.
- tomp 6y ago
  > For half the people in the US racism is not a dealbreaker for the highest office it has to offer! For the other half, sexism isn’t. (Biden selected his vice-president on the basis of sex.)

by tomp 6y ago

dash2 6y ago

OK, dude - if you really think I'm arguing in bad faith, I will just leave you to it!

mschuster91 6y ago

> researchers are racist I never argued for that. My point is that researchers (as well as everyone!) have biases, which may manifest in the end as racism or other forms of discriminations. To prevent these biases from manifesting, (AI) ethics experts are needed as oversight. > the company that employs them is racist To take the example of the "racist soap dispenser" again: while the individual people who have developed it may not have been racist, they have failed to think outside their biases and ask themselves "can people with non-white skin use the product?". Also, management has failed here, because more diverse staff would have resulted in at least one internal test candidate of color noticing "hey, I can't get soap!". The result of this lack of diversity and out-of-the-ordinary thinking was that a person of color was rightfully offended at not being dispensed soap. Therefore, the company acted racist even if it never intended to do so. > the whole country is racist Just short of half of the country recently elected a President who openly spouted white-supremacist conspiracy theories. For half the people in the US racism is not a dealbreaker for the highest office it has to offer!

dash2 6y ago
> Just short of half of the country recently elected a President who openly spouted white-supremacist conspiracy theories. For half the people in the US racism is not a dealbreaker for the highest office it has to offer! ... which is a bit different from saying that half the country is racist. Perhaps they thought the alternative was worse.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Just short of half of the country recently elected a President who openly spouted white-supremacist conspiracy theories. He was elected by the votes of ~27% of eligible voters, and about ~20% of the population, not “just short of half the country”. You could say it was a little less than half the people who felt it is worthwhile to vote in a system where votes matter so little that getting the most of them doesn't mean you win, but then the story is about alienation from the electoral system more than support or even indifference to racism.
tomp 6y ago
> For half the people in the US racism is not a dealbreaker for the highest office it has to offer! For the other half, sexism isn’t. (Biden selected his vice-president on the basis of sex.)