5 ms·

What alternative do they have? If we don't provide adequate public loos, or addiction treatment, or injection rooms, or mental health care, we should expect to

by DanBC 6y ago

What alternative do they have? If we don't provide adequate public loos, or addiction treatment, or injection rooms, or mental health care, we should expect to experience the problems that are caused.

Aunche 6y ago
I don't understand why it's so frowned upon in cities like LA to arrest someone for disposing used needles on the ground, and sending them to jail. I'm not going to pretend that it's doing the homeless any favors. However, the alternative of letting them poison themselves with drugs, and I don't see how that's any more humane. I think the real reason America fails the homeless is not a lack of empathy, but a "it's your fault because you touched it last" mentality. Housing first requires people who work with social workers. These people already draw a lot of ire when they fail or deemed as too harsh.
- DubiousPusher 6y ago
  > I'm not going to pretend that it's doing the homeless any favors. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are simply ignorant of what jail or prison does to a person. Because I cannot see otherwise how you can possibly believe your right to a clean sidewalk should be enforced at the expense of another person's rights and freedom.
- DanBC 6y ago
  Why would you spend thousands of dollars putting people in prison rather than just spending that cash on providing them treatment? Addicts, by definition, take drugs. They continue to take drugs when they know it harms them. Why do you think the potential risk of going to prison for a few days will have a deterrent effect when the very real health consequences they're currently going through isn't a deterrent?
  - Aunche 6y ago
    Of course treatment is better, but privileged Californians see the state "coercing" an addict to go to rehab as evil as well. That's why the hundreds of millions of dollars spent on homelessness rarely goes to the people who need it most.
    - DubiousPusher 6y ago
      Genuinely asking, how much more does California spends on homelessness per capita than the average state? What services are offered that aren't offered elsewhere? If these services aren't reaching people where is the money going instead?
      - Aunche 6y ago
        The majority of the homelessness budget goes towards subsidized housing and small, but still significant fraction is spent on temporary shelters. According to this source, only 7% of SF's budget is spent on street outreach, which is what most people think about. https://sf.curbed.com/2019/12/19/21027974/san-francisco-homeless-decade-2010s-kositsky-navigation-center-friedenbach https://sf.curbed.com/2019/12/19/21027974/san-francisco-home...
- mbrodersen 6y ago
  It is expensive jailing people. And it just makes the problem worse. Countries around the world (Portugal for example) show how to actually solve the problem. What seems to stop other countries adapting good solutions is a desire by the population to punish and hurt people they don’t like (the homeless).
- mbrodersen 6y ago
  I don’t understand why Americans are so eager to punish and jail people given that it objectively doesn’t fix the problems people think it will fix. My conclusion (having lived, worked and paid taxes in many countries, including the US) is that there is an undercurrent of cruelty in US culture less prevalent in (say) Australia or the UK for example. It is the only explanation I have been able to come up with that matches my experiences having lived, worked and paid taxes in Europe, US and Australia.
  - Aunche 6y ago
    I'm not "eager to punish people." Even for a junkie, it's not that hard for them to find a public restroom to shoot up and dispose their needles (at least pre-covid). They will almost certainly choose that if it means they won't get sent to jail. Right now, in LA and SF, certain areas are littered with needles and feces. I'm not blaming the homeless. I'm blaming the woke tech liberals who get offended no matter what how the police interact with the homeless. I seriously doubt that that anyone is allowed to casually shoot up in highly trafficked streets in Sydney or Berlin.
    - mbrodersen 6y ago
      It apparently cost between $30k and $60k to house a single prisoner in the US. So you have a choice: you can spend those $30k to $60k putting a homeless person in prison (not solving the problem), or spend the same money fixing the actual problem (treating it for what it is: a mental/health issue) or perhaps spend the money cleaning up the streets and provide places for people to use drugs safely. America so far has always chosen the least effective, most cruel way to pretend to solve the problem.

by DanBC 6y ago

Aunche 6y ago

I don't understand why it's so frowned upon in cities like LA to arrest someone for disposing used needles on the ground, and sending them to jail. I'm not going to pretend that it's doing the homeless any favors. However, the alternative of letting them poison themselves with drugs, and I don't see how that's any more humane. I think the real reason America fails the homeless is not a lack of empathy, but a "it's your fault because you touched it last" mentality. Housing first requires people who work with social workers. These people already draw a lot of ire when they fail or deemed as too harsh.

DubiousPusher 6y ago
> I'm not going to pretend that it's doing the homeless any favors. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are simply ignorant of what jail or prison does to a person. Because I cannot see otherwise how you can possibly believe your right to a clean sidewalk should be enforced at the expense of another person's rights and freedom.
DanBC 6y ago
Why would you spend thousands of dollars putting people in prison rather than just spending that cash on providing them treatment? Addicts, by definition, take drugs. They continue to take drugs when they know it harms them. Why do you think the potential risk of going to prison for a few days will have a deterrent effect when the very real health consequences they're currently going through isn't a deterrent?
- Aunche 6y ago
  Of course treatment is better, but privileged Californians see the state "coercing" an addict to go to rehab as evil as well. That's why the hundreds of millions of dollars spent on homelessness rarely goes to the people who need it most.
  - DubiousPusher 6y ago
    Genuinely asking, how much more does California spends on homelessness per capita than the average state? What services are offered that aren't offered elsewhere? If these services aren't reaching people where is the money going instead?
    - Aunche 6y ago
      The majority of the homelessness budget goes towards subsidized housing and small, but still significant fraction is spent on temporary shelters. According to this source, only 7% of SF's budget is spent on street outreach, which is what most people think about. https://sf.curbed.com/2019/12/19/21027974/san-francisco-homeless-decade-2010s-kositsky-navigation-center-friedenbach https://sf.curbed.com/2019/12/19/21027974/san-francisco-home...
mbrodersen 6y ago
It is expensive jailing people. And it just makes the problem worse. Countries around the world (Portugal for example) show how to actually solve the problem. What seems to stop other countries adapting good solutions is a desire by the population to punish and hurt people they don’t like (the homeless).
mbrodersen 6y ago
I don’t understand why Americans are so eager to punish and jail people given that it objectively doesn’t fix the problems people think it will fix. My conclusion (having lived, worked and paid taxes in many countries, including the US) is that there is an undercurrent of cruelty in US culture less prevalent in (say) Australia or the UK for example. It is the only explanation I have been able to come up with that matches my experiences having lived, worked and paid taxes in Europe, US and Australia.
- Aunche 6y ago
  I'm not "eager to punish people." Even for a junkie, it's not that hard for them to find a public restroom to shoot up and dispose their needles (at least pre-covid). They will almost certainly choose that if it means they won't get sent to jail. Right now, in LA and SF, certain areas are littered with needles and feces. I'm not blaming the homeless. I'm blaming the woke tech liberals who get offended no matter what how the police interact with the homeless. I seriously doubt that that anyone is allowed to casually shoot up in highly trafficked streets in Sydney or Berlin.
  - mbrodersen 6y ago
    It apparently cost between $30k and $60k to house a single prisoner in the US. So you have a choice: you can spend those $30k to $60k putting a homeless person in prison (not solving the problem), or spend the same money fixing the actual problem (treating it for what it is: a mental/health issue) or perhaps spend the money cleaning up the streets and provide places for people to use drugs safely. America so far has always chosen the least effective, most cruel way to pretend to solve the problem.