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I really liked Stephens writings until he went on a tirade against some people I worked with https://www.stephendiehl.com/posts/crypto.html https://www.stephend

by exdsq 6y ago

I really liked Stephens writings until he went on a tirade against some people I worked with https://www.stephendiehl.com/posts/crypto.html https://www.stephendiehl.com/posts/crypto.html Will try look over it and get through this new series but still sour over that blog post...

jodrellblank 6y ago
Bitcoin as cult, financial fraud, criminal scam, and religion. I like this guy. What I didn’t see was any tirade against people? - you don’t tirade against people being taken advantage of by scammers - unless those people are the cult leaders? > “New religious movements like the cryptocult provide a psychological and philosophical framework that provides sense-making for a world that seems hostile and out of their control. The crypto movement fits all the textbook criteria, it provides a mechanism for determining an in-crowd and an out-crowd (no-coiners vs bitcoiners). It gives a framework for assessing the virtue of other followers based on their faith (HODLing) in the cause. It offers simple answers to complex issues in economics and monetary policy. It gives a linguistic framework of “thought-terminating clichés” and acronyms to quell dissent. It gives a mechanism of social control in which one can acquire influence and status in exchange proselytizing and onboarding more followers to buy tokens. It makes miraculous promises of wealth, not derived from effort but from faith. It presents an eschatological narrative of retributive justice about the end-times of the global financial system, in which the true believers will be reborn with a new life in an anarcho-capitalist utopia. And most importantly, it gives people a sense of a community, hope and belonging which is a powerful force that can be exploited by charismatic leaders.”
- andrepd 6y ago
  I'm not even particularly keen on bitcoin, but that reads like a childish rant against a miscarachterisation of a group he doesn't like. I'd expect this kind of level of discourse in a 4chan thread.
  - jodrellblank 6y ago
    It reads like a concise summary of red flags around cryptocurrency, on many dimensions. It doesn't mention 'tendies' at all, call anyone names, it doesn't reek of someone bitter because they lost all their money or missed out on a get rich quick opportunity, or have that cynical nihilistic "I'm smarter than everyone" geek attitude. And it isn't framed at a rant against a /group/ as much as a warning about being a victim to the (most vocal) self-appointed leaders of the group. Yes, they're not citations to academic studies, but you don't see an in-group/out-group dynamic of "people who believe in the glorious future of Canadian dollars" vs "people who don't", or the desperation for the world to realise the truth of Mexican Pesos that only the faithful currently know, or etc.
    - cinntaile 6y ago
      We're getting a bit side tracked but here goes... You can at least critique the ones where he describes what cryptocurrencies do and that cryptocurrencies would be some kind of cult. Paragraph 3 and the last one specifically. Those are opinions, but they are presented as facts. It's certainly true that some cryptocurrencies are marketed as investments but it doesn't describe the market as a whole, there are so many things happening in that space that I would describe it as a mischaracterization. The believer point you bring up is really no different from people believing in a certain stock, they're heavily invested and try to rationalize their choices. This behaviour looks like some form of cognitive dissonance. You see this quite often online in Facebook stock groups and similar groups, typical retail investor behaviour unfortunately.
- 1996 6y ago
  > Bitcoin as cult, financial fraud, criminal scam, and religion. So here you are on HN, where most people love complaining about crypto since 2009 -- but they still have a dayjob they sure love to bitch about (even in FANGs!), while those of us who worked on crypto without any specific feelings are early retirees. > I like this guy. Me too, but I try to leave aside opinions and focus on interesting content.
  - nv-vn 6y ago
    >while those of us who worked on crypto without any specific feelings are early retirees I'm sure all the Enron investors said something similar before they went bust
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - 1996 6y ago
      If they didn't diversify away from 100% Enron, they are to blame, because retirement is when you reduce risks, the stocks vs bond allocation and all that, you know?
      - jdmoreira 6y ago
        They were still crooks. Some people have morals
  - jodrellblank 6y ago
    > while those of us who worked on crypto without any specific feelings are early retirees. Proudly grouping yourself with Peter Popoff and his "debt cancelling miracle spring water", with the justification "I made money so it's not a scam". With your friends Uri Geller, Charles Ponzi, Elizabeth Holmes, Kenneth Copeland, and crew. > Me too, but I try to leave aside opinions Sorry, was your first paragraph not gloating about your superiority, and looking down on and mocking people who still have to work for a living for not having your dispassionate visionary insight? Because it sure felt like a big dollop of opinion.
free2OSS 6y ago
It's best to seperate the human from their technical work. I do technical work and unfortunately can't contain my Politics on social media (due to their psychology tricks). I know both Republicans and Democrats will dismiss my math because I don't belong to their side.
- ZeroClickOk 6y ago
  Yeah, not politics at all at work. And the worst fact (at least for me) mostly 90% of all programming guys are Democrats :(
  - c-cube 6y ago
    Not even 90% of programmers are Americans. Or men. The whole world is not just republican VS democrats....
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- dan-robertson 6y ago
  I Disagree. But in particular I a think it is important for one to care about the ethics of what one works on and whom one works with. This is an industry where people are generally in a position to be choosy about what they do and it is a myth that it’s generally possible to separate something technical or theoretical from how it is used. Even if one releases software with a license like the GPL that explicitly doesn’t constrain what the software is used for, I think one should still care about how it is used and the ethical implications of it.
  - free2OSS 6y ago
    I'll give you some credit since Programming is not Science/Engineering but rather some combination of Science/Authority/Tradition/Art. But in science fields, authors names don't really matter. The same outcome will exist regardless who is studying it.
ddevault 6y ago
This is great. Thanks for sharing. I echo the author's sentiments and I think you ought to choose better colleagues.
- exdsq 6y ago
  The article was edited and I hadn't realised. The original version was [0]. And, working in Haskell, I genuinely don't believe there was a better team around! [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20200730131647/https://www.stephendiehl.com/posts/crypto.html https://web.archive.org/web/20200730131647/https://www.steph...
  - ddevault 6y ago
    As far as I can tell, the only difference is that he names names.
    - exdsq 6y ago
      Yes you're right. Had he not mentioned names I wouldn't have cared as much. Having worked with everyone he mentioned, and knowing how hard they worked & how great they were at what they did, it felt a little too personal attack. Not to mention the author tried to collaborate with said groups on his own decentralised treasury project a while back.
      - ddevault 6y ago
        I don't really care about the details: I do not trust anyone who works with cryptocurrency. I don't care how close you were with them, I simply do not trust them and I will not work with them. I will support the denouncement their work. Cryptocurrency is a disease, and I hold those who proliferate it personally responsible. I do, however, credit the author for denouncing it even after being involved with something similar in the past. That's called personal growth. I won't hold a grudge against your colleagues if they choose a similar path for themselves.
exdsq 6y ago
Can't edit my post, but for context Stephen has since edited his article. My post was related to this version -https://web.archive.org/web/20200730131647/https://www.stephendiehl.com/posts/crypto.html https://web.archive.org/web/20200730131647/https://www.steph... - which specifically mentioned companies I worked with and respect.

by exdsq 6y ago

jodrellblank 6y ago

Bitcoin as cult, financial fraud, criminal scam, and religion. I like this guy. What I didn’t see was any tirade against people? - you don’t tirade against people being taken advantage of by scammers - unless those people are the cult leaders? > “New religious movements like the cryptocult provide a psychological and philosophical framework that provides sense-making for a world that seems hostile and out of their control. The crypto movement fits all the textbook criteria, it provides a mechanism for determining an in-crowd and an out-crowd (no-coiners vs bitcoiners). It gives a framework for assessing the virtue of other followers based on their faith (HODLing) in the cause. It offers simple answers to complex issues in economics and monetary policy. It gives a linguistic framework of “thought-terminating clichés” and acronyms to quell dissent. It gives a mechanism of social control in which one can acquire influence and status in exchange proselytizing and onboarding more followers to buy tokens. It makes miraculous promises of wealth, not derived from effort but from faith. It presents an eschatological narrative of retributive justice about the end-times of the global financial system, in which the true believers will be reborn with a new life in an anarcho-capitalist utopia. And most importantly, it gives people a sense of a community, hope and belonging which is a powerful force that can be exploited by charismatic leaders.”

andrepd 6y ago
I'm not even particularly keen on bitcoin, but that reads like a childish rant against a miscarachterisation of a group he doesn't like. I'd expect this kind of level of discourse in a 4chan thread.
- jodrellblank 6y ago
  It reads like a concise summary of red flags around cryptocurrency, on many dimensions. It doesn't mention 'tendies' at all, call anyone names, it doesn't reek of someone bitter because they lost all their money or missed out on a get rich quick opportunity, or have that cynical nihilistic "I'm smarter than everyone" geek attitude. And it isn't framed at a rant against a /group/ as much as a warning about being a victim to the (most vocal) self-appointed leaders of the group. Yes, they're not citations to academic studies, but you don't see an in-group/out-group dynamic of "people who believe in the glorious future of Canadian dollars" vs "people who don't", or the desperation for the world to realise the truth of Mexican Pesos that only the faithful currently know, or etc.
  - cinntaile 6y ago
    We're getting a bit side tracked but here goes... You can at least critique the ones where he describes what cryptocurrencies do and that cryptocurrencies would be some kind of cult. Paragraph 3 and the last one specifically. Those are opinions, but they are presented as facts. It's certainly true that some cryptocurrencies are marketed as investments but it doesn't describe the market as a whole, there are so many things happening in that space that I would describe it as a mischaracterization. The believer point you bring up is really no different from people believing in a certain stock, they're heavily invested and try to rationalize their choices. This behaviour looks like some form of cognitive dissonance. You see this quite often online in Facebook stock groups and similar groups, typical retail investor behaviour unfortunately.
1996 6y ago
> Bitcoin as cult, financial fraud, criminal scam, and religion. So here you are on HN, where most people love complaining about crypto since 2009 -- but they still have a dayjob they sure love to bitch about (even in FANGs!), while those of us who worked on crypto without any specific feelings are early retirees. > I like this guy. Me too, but I try to leave aside opinions and focus on interesting content.
- nv-vn 6y ago
  >while those of us who worked on crypto without any specific feelings are early retirees I'm sure all the Enron investors said something similar before they went bust
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - 1996 6y ago
    If they didn't diversify away from 100% Enron, they are to blame, because retirement is when you reduce risks, the stocks vs bond allocation and all that, you know?
    - jdmoreira 6y ago
      They were still crooks. Some people have morals
- jodrellblank 6y ago
  > while those of us who worked on crypto without any specific feelings are early retirees. Proudly grouping yourself with Peter Popoff and his "debt cancelling miracle spring water", with the justification "I made money so it's not a scam". With your friends Uri Geller, Charles Ponzi, Elizabeth Holmes, Kenneth Copeland, and crew. > Me too, but I try to leave aside opinions Sorry, was your first paragraph not gloating about your superiority, and looking down on and mocking people who still have to work for a living for not having your dispassionate visionary insight? Because it sure felt like a big dollop of opinion.

free2OSS 6y ago

It's best to seperate the human from their technical work. I do technical work and unfortunately can't contain my Politics on social media (due to their psychology tricks). I know both Republicans and Democrats will dismiss my math because I don't belong to their side.

ZeroClickOk 6y ago
Yeah, not politics at all at work. And the worst fact (at least for me) mostly 90% of all programming guys are Democrats :(
- c-cube 6y ago
  Not even 90% of programmers are Americans. Or men. The whole world is not just republican VS democrats....
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
dan-robertson 6y ago
I Disagree. But in particular I a think it is important for one to care about the ethics of what one works on and whom one works with. This is an industry where people are generally in a position to be choosy about what they do and it is a myth that it’s generally possible to separate something technical or theoretical from how it is used. Even if one releases software with a license like the GPL that explicitly doesn’t constrain what the software is used for, I think one should still care about how it is used and the ethical implications of it.
- free2OSS 6y ago
  I'll give you some credit since Programming is not Science/Engineering but rather some combination of Science/Authority/Tradition/Art. But in science fields, authors names don't really matter. The same outcome will exist regardless who is studying it.

ddevault 6y ago

This is great. Thanks for sharing. I echo the author's sentiments and I think you ought to choose better colleagues.

exdsq 6y ago
The article was edited and I hadn't realised. The original version was [0]. And, working in Haskell, I genuinely don't believe there was a better team around! [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20200730131647/https://www.stephendiehl.com/posts/crypto.html https://web.archive.org/web/20200730131647/https://www.steph...
- ddevault 6y ago
  As far as I can tell, the only difference is that he names names.
  - exdsq 6y ago
    Yes you're right. Had he not mentioned names I wouldn't have cared as much. Having worked with everyone he mentioned, and knowing how hard they worked & how great they were at what they did, it felt a little too personal attack. Not to mention the author tried to collaborate with said groups on his own decentralised treasury project a while back.
    - ddevault 6y ago
      I don't really care about the details: I do not trust anyone who works with cryptocurrency. I don't care how close you were with them, I simply do not trust them and I will not work with them. I will support the denouncement their work. Cryptocurrency is a disease, and I hold those who proliferate it personally responsible. I do, however, credit the author for denouncing it even after being involved with something similar in the past. That's called personal growth. I won't hold a grudge against your colleagues if they choose a similar path for themselves.

exdsq 6y ago

Can't edit my post, but for context Stephen has since edited his article. My post was related to this version -https://web.archive.org/web/20200730131647/https://www.stephendiehl.com/posts/crypto.html https://web.archive.org/web/20200730131647/https://www.steph... - which specifically mentioned companies I worked with and respect.