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When I read comments coming from people who don't use PHP which are always negative or condescending, I wonder - how do you imagine programmers who use PHP are

by fraktl 6y ago

When I read comments coming from people who don't use PHP which are always negative or condescending, I wonder - how do you imagine programmers who use PHP are like? Do you immediately draw parallels in your mind that makes us PHP-ers incompetent and basically dumb, while having a language that lets you mash the keyboard and it works? Honestly, after having used most of the languages at my disposal for past 22 years I've been doing this job - they were nothing special compared to PHP (or PHP compared to others). You still have to figure the problem out before solving it with algorithms. No language or framework will help you do that. I'm keen to hear why there are comments that demean one tool and elevate the other, when in reality - they're all just programming languages.

codeflo 6y ago
No, I don’t imagine that. But the fact is, PHP is very verbose and missing a lot of tools for building good abstractions compared to richer languages. If you’ve used “most of the languages” (whatever that is supposed to mean) and not realized this, I recommend you read up and reflect on the Blub Paradox: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
- fraktl 6y ago
  I'm sorry, but it seems like you haven't used PHP and are actually in the dark about what language features there are. I wrote "most languages at my disposal", I didn't want to go down the path where I basically throw buzzwords and brag in front of someone I don't even know. Don't get me wrong, but you don't seem interested in discussing, you rather appear to want to show how right you are without iota of PHP knowledge. Since there's no dialogue here and you appear to be yet another code plumber, I'll bid you farewell and I wish you all the best in your career.
- tored 6y ago
  What abstractions is PHP missing exactly?
- kingdomcome50 6y ago
  Did you read that? > If you're writing a program that only has to do something very simple, like number crunching or bit manipulation, you may as well use a less abstract language, especially since it may be slightly faster. In your opinion, what percentage of web applications do you think are non-trivial? And for what it’s worth, nobody chooses PHP because of the language. That’s not the selling point. The selling point is the development paradigm/runtime. It’s dead simple. I recently started a small web project using the SAFE stack: https://safe-stack.github.io/docs/quickstart/ https://safe-stack.github.io/docs/quickstart/ I urge you to follow that QuickStart yourself (it only takes a minute or two). Assuming you were actually able to build the project, now, look at your project structure. How many directories do you have (11)? How many files (15510)? Think about how much knowledge is required to understand what’s going on (if you’ve never touched F# you are probably lost). What does this QuickStart app do? It is, I kid you not, a “Todo list”! I could write an almost exact clone of this app using PHP in exactly 1 file. No configuration scripts. No build suite. No 3rd-party packages. No CLI commands. Just 1 PHP file. Thats why people choose PHP.
tux 6y ago
>> You still have to figure the problem out before solving it with algorithms. No language or framework will help you do that. I agree, I've coded in PHP/Python/Ruby/Perl/Bash for many years. All languages have there own place if you can code! Spend less time comparing lanuages and actually code something!
afarrell 6y ago
I imagine programmers who do not place a high value on the impact that their tools have on their ability to think through problems effectively. I am not saying that you are dumb. I am saying that your values clash with my needs. This clash is so strong that I predict that if I again try to program professionally in php and its frameworks, the interaction would again have a disastrous impact on my mental health, my livelihood, and my marriage. ----------------------------------- Let's suppose you enjoyed baking bread, but someone rejected your work and told you that gluten gives them terrible intestinal pain. You would have a choice: 1. Conclude they're being overdramatic and be offended by their rejection. 2. Believe their self assessment, move on, and continue with your craft. ----------------------------------- (They would have a similar choice whether or not to come into a threat about baking and yell at people about gluten)
- kingdomcome50 6y ago
  > This clash is so strong that I predict that if I again try to program professionally in php and its frameworks, the interaction would again have a disastrous impact on my mental health, my livelihood, and my marriage > Let's suppose you enjoyed baking bread, but someone rejected your work and told you that gluten gives them terrible intestinal pain Both these examples are ones where the problem isn't the tool, rather, the person using it. It's not really PHP (or the bread) being critiqued is it?
  - afarrell 6y ago
    The problem is the interaction. ---------------- If an RJ45 connector won't fit into a USB-A slot, what is the problem? A. The RJ45 connector B. The USB-A slot C. The action of trying to fit one to the other ---------------- If a straight man is married to a lesbian and their sex life is terrible, what is the problem? A. The man B. The woman C. The attempt to force a sexual relationship over a friendship
    - kingdomcome50 6y ago
      Right. PHP is not the problem. Nor is the bread, or the connectors, or the husband/wife. That is exactly my point - you are leveling a criticism at yourself and your own inability to use a tool. This is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself or the other practitioners who choose to use it. It is therefore a bit offensive that the conclusion you draw is that developers who use PHP must have a deficit in their ability to work through problems. The “problems” do not change based on which language is chosen to solve them. That is, if you actually understand the “problems” in the first place...
anticristi 6y ago
My comment was not meant to be demeaning, sorry if this was not clear. I used PHP 4 and it was okey, albeit pretty inconsistent. However, programming languages are a very competitive space. It is extremely expensive to keep them and their ecosystem alive. My sense is that, unless a language keeps up, it will go down. Not in the sense that it will disappear overnight, just less favoured every time a Greenfield project starts. My subjective analysis is that each language has a niche that if fills nicely: - C - no BS, no runtime, close to hardware. - C++ - a bit further from the hardware, a bit closer to the developer. - Python - glue the two above with few lines of code. Go-to language for "data pipelines". - NodeJS - one code, can run both in the browser and on the server. Go-to language for web development. - Java - one syntax, runs both on Android and on servers. - C# and Go - vendor-evangelised languages. Supported by huge vendors and their network of partners. - COBOL - too big to fail :)) I honestly don't get what niche PHP fills. Why would anyone choose PHP over another language? Developer pool? Ecosystem of libraries? Evangelized by a vendor? Front-runner in new concepts? Too big to fail?
- kingdomcome50 6y ago
  Because the vast majority of problems are trivial. And a trivial problem demands a trivial solution. PHP offers a development paradigm second to none. Drop a single file into a single directory and hit f5. Problem solved. Next. Which language above can do that?
  - anticristi 6y ago
    Well ... both Flask (Python) and Express with Nodemon (NodeJS) can do hot reload.
    - kingdomcome50 6y ago
      No doubt. I'm not trying disparage other options. My point is that PHP literally only requires a single file to work. No cli commands. No 3rd-party packages. No configuration files. Just PHP.

by fraktl 6y ago

codeflo 6y ago

No, I don’t imagine that. But the fact is, PHP is very verbose and missing a lot of tools for building good abstractions compared to richer languages. If you’ve used “most of the languages” (whatever that is supposed to mean) and not realized this, I recommend you read up and reflect on the Blub Paradox: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

fraktl 6y ago
I'm sorry, but it seems like you haven't used PHP and are actually in the dark about what language features there are. I wrote "most languages at my disposal", I didn't want to go down the path where I basically throw buzzwords and brag in front of someone I don't even know. Don't get me wrong, but you don't seem interested in discussing, you rather appear to want to show how right you are without iota of PHP knowledge. Since there's no dialogue here and you appear to be yet another code plumber, I'll bid you farewell and I wish you all the best in your career.
tored 6y ago
What abstractions is PHP missing exactly?
kingdomcome50 6y ago
Did you read that? > If you're writing a program that only has to do something very simple, like number crunching or bit manipulation, you may as well use a less abstract language, especially since it may be slightly faster. In your opinion, what percentage of web applications do you think are non-trivial? And for what it’s worth, nobody chooses PHP because of the language. That’s not the selling point. The selling point is the development paradigm/runtime. It’s dead simple. I recently started a small web project using the SAFE stack: https://safe-stack.github.io/docs/quickstart/ https://safe-stack.github.io/docs/quickstart/ I urge you to follow that QuickStart yourself (it only takes a minute or two). Assuming you were actually able to build the project, now, look at your project structure. How many directories do you have (11)? How many files (15510)? Think about how much knowledge is required to understand what’s going on (if you’ve never touched F# you are probably lost). What does this QuickStart app do? It is, I kid you not, a “Todo list”! I could write an almost exact clone of this app using PHP in exactly 1 file. No configuration scripts. No build suite. No 3rd-party packages. No CLI commands. Just 1 PHP file. Thats why people choose PHP.

tux 6y ago

>> You still have to figure the problem out before solving it with algorithms. No language or framework will help you do that. I agree, I've coded in PHP/Python/Ruby/Perl/Bash for many years. All languages have there own place if you can code! Spend less time comparing lanuages and actually code something!

afarrell 6y ago

I imagine programmers who do not place a high value on the impact that their tools have on their ability to think through problems effectively. I am not saying that you are dumb. I am saying that your values clash with my needs. This clash is so strong that I predict that if I again try to program professionally in php and its frameworks, the interaction would again have a disastrous impact on my mental health, my livelihood, and my marriage. ----------------------------------- Let's suppose you enjoyed baking bread, but someone rejected your work and told you that gluten gives them terrible intestinal pain. You would have a choice: 1. Conclude they're being overdramatic and be offended by their rejection. 2. Believe their self assessment, move on, and continue with your craft. ----------------------------------- (They would have a similar choice whether or not to come into a threat about baking and yell at people about gluten)

kingdomcome50 6y ago
> This clash is so strong that I predict that if I again try to program professionally in php and its frameworks, the interaction would again have a disastrous impact on my mental health, my livelihood, and my marriage > Let's suppose you enjoyed baking bread, but someone rejected your work and told you that gluten gives them terrible intestinal pain Both these examples are ones where the problem isn't the tool, rather, the person using it. It's not really PHP (or the bread) being critiqued is it?
- afarrell 6y ago
  The problem is the interaction. ---------------- If an RJ45 connector won't fit into a USB-A slot, what is the problem? A. The RJ45 connector B. The USB-A slot C. The action of trying to fit one to the other ---------------- If a straight man is married to a lesbian and their sex life is terrible, what is the problem? A. The man B. The woman C. The attempt to force a sexual relationship over a friendship
  - kingdomcome50 6y ago
    Right. PHP is not the problem. Nor is the bread, or the connectors, or the husband/wife. That is exactly my point - you are leveling a criticism at yourself and your own inability to use a tool. This is wholly unrelated to the quality of the tool itself or the other practitioners who choose to use it. It is therefore a bit offensive that the conclusion you draw is that developers who use PHP must have a deficit in their ability to work through problems. The “problems” do not change based on which language is chosen to solve them. That is, if you actually understand the “problems” in the first place...

anticristi 6y ago

My comment was not meant to be demeaning, sorry if this was not clear. I used PHP 4 and it was okey, albeit pretty inconsistent. However, programming languages are a very competitive space. It is extremely expensive to keep them and their ecosystem alive. My sense is that, unless a language keeps up, it will go down. Not in the sense that it will disappear overnight, just less favoured every time a Greenfield project starts. My subjective analysis is that each language has a niche that if fills nicely: - C - no BS, no runtime, close to hardware. - C++ - a bit further from the hardware, a bit closer to the developer. - Python - glue the two above with few lines of code. Go-to language for "data pipelines". - NodeJS - one code, can run both in the browser and on the server. Go-to language for web development. - Java - one syntax, runs both on Android and on servers. - C# and Go - vendor-evangelised languages. Supported by huge vendors and their network of partners. - COBOL - too big to fail :)) I honestly don't get what niche PHP fills. Why would anyone choose PHP over another language? Developer pool? Ecosystem of libraries? Evangelized by a vendor? Front-runner in new concepts? Too big to fail?

kingdomcome50 6y ago
Because the vast majority of problems are trivial. And a trivial problem demands a trivial solution. PHP offers a development paradigm second to none. Drop a single file into a single directory and hit f5. Problem solved. Next. Which language above can do that?
- anticristi 6y ago
  Well ... both Flask (Python) and Express with Nodemon (NodeJS) can do hot reload.
  - kingdomcome50 6y ago
    No doubt. I'm not trying disparage other options. My point is that PHP literally only requires a single file to work. No cli commands. No 3rd-party packages. No configuration files. Just PHP.