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> College used to be something where you could reasonably pay tuition with a decent summer job. That was only true for a few decades in the late 20th century,

> College used to be something where you could reasonably pay tuition with a decent summer job. That was only true for a few decades in the late 20th century, due to massive state subsidies covered by taxpayers, many of whom did not get to go to college themselves. I guarantee you that college will not get cheaper if the student loan money dries up. The only thing that will change, is that only rich kids will get to go to college. Even public schools are building luxury student housing on campus. They aren't going to cut back, because they will always have enough rich kids and foreign students to cover the cost of running the place. In-state students are not who pay the bills. We don't live in a socialist country. If we hope for a utopia we will only lock non-rich kids out of college. If you want normal people to be able to afford college, they need access to loans, which fortunately have flexible terms and, again, amount to about the cost of a new car. It's hardly a dystopia. It's a realistic accomodation to a capitalist society, and a college loan is one of the least burdensome loans those students will undertake in their lives.

imgabe 6y ago
And taking on massive student loan debt (also government subsidized) that you spend the majority of your adult lifetime paying off is only true for a few decades at the end of the 20th and beginning of the 21st century. I don't know why you're married to this concept as the end-all, be-all only option for education financing, especially when there is an endless flood of people saying how it personally harmed them. There are absolutely not enough foreign students to keep shoring up US universities. Many mid and lower tier schools are already experiencing cash flow problems. Many should and probably will close. There's no law of nature that demands you have to spend $40k a year to have someone tell you what Hamlet is about just so you can be qualified to come up with a new marketing campaign for a soft drink or whatever you end up doing. Most jobs don't require anything you learn in college, so why are we forcing kids into a lifetime of indentured servitude just so they can get a degree?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- twblalock 6y ago
  > And taking on massive student loan debt (also government subsidized) that you spend the majority of your adult lifetime paying off is only true for a few decades at the end of the 20th and beginning of the 21st century. How much do you honestly think the average student takes on? What about the median? You mentioned $40k/yr to learn Hamlet. The figures I am looking up show less than $30k total over 4 years of education. It is pretty hard to believe that can be a lifelong debt or result in "indentured servitude", as you put it.
  - imgabe 6y ago
    I don't get how you consider $30k "not a big deal". That's just the average, many people owe a lot more than that. The median entry level salary is $41k. That means the average student is coming out of college owing 75% of their income. That is ridiculous. According to this [1] the average payment is $393. If you're making $41k, that's $3416 per month gross, maybe $2300 after taxes and 401k contributions. Good luck finding an apartment in a city with any jobs for less than $1k per month. That leaves you $1300, with a $393 monthly payment you're spending about 30% of your monthly disposable income just to service debt. That leaves $800 for food, utilities, transportation, saving, going out with friends and having some semblance of a social life, dating. It's not impossible, but don't pretend a nearly $400/month payment is not huge burden for someone in that situation. If they're smart and careful, yeah, they can manage it, but if not, or if they have some bad luck, get sick, any sort of financial trouble and they're suddenly in a huge hole, with no savings and an inescapable debt. The forbearance programs are a joke. Fees and interest continue to accrue and people come out of them owing double what they did when they went in. You can't say "Oh it's just a Camry!" no sane person would recommend that anyone take out a car loan for 75% of their annual income. And that's assuming they even finish school and get a median level job. It's the median, so 50% of people are earning less and are even worse off. There are knock-on effects to the rest of the economy. People are delaying buying houses (if they can ever afford to), having kids. They can't afford to move or take risks, start businesses. What is it going to look like in 20 or 30 years when an entire generation has grown up stunted by this burden? [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student-loan-debt-statistics/?sh=28d5654281fe https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student...

imgabe 6y ago

And taking on massive student loan debt (also government subsidized) that you spend the majority of your adult lifetime paying off is only true for a few decades at the end of the 20th and beginning of the 21st century. I don't know why you're married to this concept as the end-all, be-all only option for education financing, especially when there is an endless flood of people saying how it personally harmed them. There are absolutely not enough foreign students to keep shoring up US universities. Many mid and lower tier schools are already experiencing cash flow problems. Many should and probably will close. There's no law of nature that demands you have to spend $40k a year to have someone tell you what Hamlet is about just so you can be qualified to come up with a new marketing campaign for a soft drink or whatever you end up doing. Most jobs don't require anything you learn in college, so why are we forcing kids into a lifetime of indentured servitude just so they can get a degree?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
twblalock 6y ago
> And taking on massive student loan debt (also government subsidized) that you spend the majority of your adult lifetime paying off is only true for a few decades at the end of the 20th and beginning of the 21st century. How much do you honestly think the average student takes on? What about the median? You mentioned $40k/yr to learn Hamlet. The figures I am looking up show less than $30k total over 4 years of education. It is pretty hard to believe that can be a lifelong debt or result in "indentured servitude", as you put it.
- imgabe 6y ago
  I don't get how you consider $30k "not a big deal". That's just the average, many people owe a lot more than that. The median entry level salary is $41k. That means the average student is coming out of college owing 75% of their income. That is ridiculous. According to this [1] the average payment is $393. If you're making $41k, that's $3416 per month gross, maybe $2300 after taxes and 401k contributions. Good luck finding an apartment in a city with any jobs for less than $1k per month. That leaves you $1300, with a $393 monthly payment you're spending about 30% of your monthly disposable income just to service debt. That leaves $800 for food, utilities, transportation, saving, going out with friends and having some semblance of a social life, dating. It's not impossible, but don't pretend a nearly $400/month payment is not huge burden for someone in that situation. If they're smart and careful, yeah, they can manage it, but if not, or if they have some bad luck, get sick, any sort of financial trouble and they're suddenly in a huge hole, with no savings and an inescapable debt. The forbearance programs are a joke. Fees and interest continue to accrue and people come out of them owing double what they did when they went in. You can't say "Oh it's just a Camry!" no sane person would recommend that anyone take out a car loan for 75% of their annual income. And that's assuming they even finish school and get a median level job. It's the median, so 50% of people are earning less and are even worse off. There are knock-on effects to the rest of the economy. People are delaying buying houses (if they can ever afford to), having kids. They can't afford to move or take risks, start businesses. What is it going to look like in 20 or 30 years when an entire generation has grown up stunted by this burden? [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student-loan-debt-statistics/?sh=28d5654281fe https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student...