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The issue isn't whether there are abundant "literate" resources (podcasts, in your example) but whether the average member of a democratic society is literate.

The issue isn't whether there are abundant "literate" resources (podcasts, in your example) but whether the average member of a democratic society is literate. More importantly, whether the elites are deeply literate. I don't know about you, but when I look at the popular media and at political leaders, they seem highly illiterate compared to those from just a century ago. Even the "literate elite" media, e.g. The New Yorker, has dropped in quality from a few decades ago. Just read some old issues to see what I mean. Regardless, this article is hardly the first or only study of this problem. Allan Bloom wrote The Closing of the American Mind in 1987. Harold Bloom and John Simon wrote a few books on the topic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Closing_of_the_American_Mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Closing_of_the_American_Mi...

kiba 6y ago
So, it 'seems'. Is there a systematic study measuring the 'literacy' quality of thoughts over time in media?
- keiferski 6y ago
  The article itself is about such studies in relation to the brain. A simple google search brings dozens of related results. https://all4ed.org/articles/a-decade-of-decline-survey-finds-a-decline-in-literacy-skills-among-college-graduates/ https://all4ed.org/articles/a-decade-of-decline-survey-finds... https://theweek.com/articles/875253/unsurprising-decline-childhood-literacy-america https://theweek.com/articles/875253/unsurprising-decline-chi... https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/1996/05/15/34roch.h15.html https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/1996/05/15/34roch.h15.htm... https://ivyreads.com/blog/academic-literacy-is-declining https://ivyreads.com/blog/academic-literacy-is-declining https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247760981_Literacy_in_Decline_Untangling_the_Evidence https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247760981_Literacy_... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/30/us/reading-scores-national-exam.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/30/us/reading-scores-nationa... Furthermore, if your only metric of determining truth is a social science study, I think you're perhaps missing the forest for the trees.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
giovannibonetti 6y ago
Journalism was a very coveted field 50 years ago. Lots of bright people wanted to work there. Nowadays there are many interesting and rewarding jobs for people with good education, and the news industry is losing resources to social networks and online classified sites. A similar analysis can be applied to explain the decline in the quality of school teachers. Women used to have very few work opportunities in the past, and many of the brightest ones would end up teaching. That's not the case anymore, there are many more rewarding paths nowadays, like getting a law degree. So, please don't assume the quality of journalism has dropped because the literacy level of society has fallen.
paganel 6y ago
> The New Yorker, has dropped in quality from a few decades ago. Just read some old issues to see what I mean. Heck, I remember reading a cycling news article from the sports newspaper L'Equipe citing Villon about 10 years ago (when that newspaper still was a proper one, i.e. big-format), judging by what most French people say on /r/soccer when it comes to L'Equipe that level of literacy has not been maintained.
- nine_k 6y ago
  I suspect that quoting Villon in France is like quoting Shakespeare in England, or Pushkin in Russia, or Goethe in Germany, etc. It's likely something you've read (and maybe learned by heart) at school.
  - Poc 6y ago
    Not really, maybe it was the case 50 years ago (I don't know). Now I'd say the authors that are the most well known in France are Victor Hugo, Molière (we say that french is Molière's tongue), Voltaire and La Fontaine (every student has to learn some of his fable), maybe Baudelaire. But then again, even tho most french people heard/learned about them, few could quote one of those author. As for an equivalent of Shakespeare, Pushkin, Goethe or Dante, we don't have any author stamped "best French author", it's a matter of personal opinion I guess. I'd say maybe Proust, but not a lot of people read him. (There is a saying that half the people who say they read Proust, did not).
LudwigNagasena 6y ago
A member of a democratic society, the media and the elites are all different groups and their “deep literacy” may or may not correlate. To me the decline of perceived “literacy” among the elites seems like a direct effect of democratization and doesn’t represent any change of the distribution of “deep literacy” in the whole population.
- DubiousPusher 6y ago
  Exactly. Most polticial elites go to the same snazzy colleges as their forebearers where they read Homer and Thucydides. One of the big differences is the kind of public image politicians want to project. Even still, a lot of this is just our perception. We don't dwell on the history of pugilists that slept in meat lockers or boys sloshing their father's pale of beer as the retrieve it up the street or the thousands of petty riots or the vulgar theater which was always popular. We ignore the masses and read exclusively of the elites or again of the most organized and well written of non-elites. Yet we must live our present lives without the many professors and researchers having filtered life for us already. So it is likely we see a fairer sampling of common ideas.
DubiousPusher 6y ago
> The issue isn't whether there are abundant "literate" resources (podcasts, in your example) It was exactly my point that this is not a good argument. But rather that if one wishes to indulge in argument by anecdote, they can find ample evidence for the opposing view of this article. > I don't know about you, but when I look at the popular media and at political leaders, they seem highly illiterate compared to those from just a century ago Was Chester A Arthur "deeply literate"? William McKinley? Taft? Harding? Hoover? I suppose I know Teddy Roosevelt was having read his biography but all this again is anecdote. > Even the "literate elite" media, e.g. The New Yorker, has dropped in quality from a few decades ago. You'll forgive me if I find a subjective evaluation with a sample size of one unconvincing. > Regardless, this article is hardly the first or only study of this problem. Yes most writings about the subject are the same kind of anecdotal grumblings free of concrete evidence. Frankly, as is just about every argument Bloom ever made. I'm willing to accept the author's conclusion. And honestly I don't really care whether it is true or the opposite is. But if an author wishes for me to carry around their belief as part of my concept of the world they have to do better than this.

kiba 6y ago

So, it 'seems'. Is there a systematic study measuring the 'literacy' quality of thoughts over time in media?

keiferski 6y ago
The article itself is about such studies in relation to the brain. A simple google search brings dozens of related results. https://all4ed.org/articles/a-decade-of-decline-survey-finds-a-decline-in-literacy-skills-among-college-graduates/ https://all4ed.org/articles/a-decade-of-decline-survey-finds... https://theweek.com/articles/875253/unsurprising-decline-childhood-literacy-america https://theweek.com/articles/875253/unsurprising-decline-chi... https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/1996/05/15/34roch.h15.html https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/1996/05/15/34roch.h15.htm... https://ivyreads.com/blog/academic-literacy-is-declining https://ivyreads.com/blog/academic-literacy-is-declining https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247760981_Literacy_in_Decline_Untangling_the_Evidence https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247760981_Literacy_... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/30/us/reading-scores-national-exam.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/30/us/reading-scores-nationa... Furthermore, if your only metric of determining truth is a social science study, I think you're perhaps missing the forest for the trees.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

giovannibonetti 6y ago

Journalism was a very coveted field 50 years ago. Lots of bright people wanted to work there. Nowadays there are many interesting and rewarding jobs for people with good education, and the news industry is losing resources to social networks and online classified sites. A similar analysis can be applied to explain the decline in the quality of school teachers. Women used to have very few work opportunities in the past, and many of the brightest ones would end up teaching. That's not the case anymore, there are many more rewarding paths nowadays, like getting a law degree. So, please don't assume the quality of journalism has dropped because the literacy level of society has fallen.

paganel 6y ago

> The New Yorker, has dropped in quality from a few decades ago. Just read some old issues to see what I mean. Heck, I remember reading a cycling news article from the sports newspaper L'Equipe citing Villon about 10 years ago (when that newspaper still was a proper one, i.e. big-format), judging by what most French people say on /r/soccer when it comes to L'Equipe that level of literacy has not been maintained.

nine_k 6y ago
I suspect that quoting Villon in France is like quoting Shakespeare in England, or Pushkin in Russia, or Goethe in Germany, etc. It's likely something you've read (and maybe learned by heart) at school.
- Poc 6y ago
  Not really, maybe it was the case 50 years ago (I don't know). Now I'd say the authors that are the most well known in France are Victor Hugo, Molière (we say that french is Molière's tongue), Voltaire and La Fontaine (every student has to learn some of his fable), maybe Baudelaire. But then again, even tho most french people heard/learned about them, few could quote one of those author. As for an equivalent of Shakespeare, Pushkin, Goethe or Dante, we don't have any author stamped "best French author", it's a matter of personal opinion I guess. I'd say maybe Proust, but not a lot of people read him. (There is a saying that half the people who say they read Proust, did not).

LudwigNagasena 6y ago

A member of a democratic society, the media and the elites are all different groups and their “deep literacy” may or may not correlate. To me the decline of perceived “literacy” among the elites seems like a direct effect of democratization and doesn’t represent any change of the distribution of “deep literacy” in the whole population.

DubiousPusher 6y ago
Exactly. Most polticial elites go to the same snazzy colleges as their forebearers where they read Homer and Thucydides. One of the big differences is the kind of public image politicians want to project. Even still, a lot of this is just our perception. We don't dwell on the history of pugilists that slept in meat lockers or boys sloshing their father's pale of beer as the retrieve it up the street or the thousands of petty riots or the vulgar theater which was always popular. We ignore the masses and read exclusively of the elites or again of the most organized and well written of non-elites. Yet we must live our present lives without the many professors and researchers having filtered life for us already. So it is likely we see a fairer sampling of common ideas.

DubiousPusher 6y ago

> The issue isn't whether there are abundant "literate" resources (podcasts, in your example) It was exactly my point that this is not a good argument. But rather that if one wishes to indulge in argument by anecdote, they can find ample evidence for the opposing view of this article. > I don't know about you, but when I look at the popular media and at political leaders, they seem highly illiterate compared to those from just a century ago Was Chester A Arthur "deeply literate"? William McKinley? Taft? Harding? Hoover? I suppose I know Teddy Roosevelt was having read his biography but all this again is anecdote. > Even the "literate elite" media, e.g. The New Yorker, has dropped in quality from a few decades ago. You'll forgive me if I find a subjective evaluation with a sample size of one unconvincing. > Regardless, this article is hardly the first or only study of this problem. Yes most writings about the subject are the same kind of anecdotal grumblings free of concrete evidence. Frankly, as is just about every argument Bloom ever made. I'm willing to accept the author's conclusion. And honestly I don't really care whether it is true or the opposite is. But if an author wishes for me to carry around their belief as part of my concept of the world they have to do better than this.