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You’re going to be downvoted, not because of your questions, but because you decided to put “please bring the downvotes” at the end of your comment. Why would y

You’re going to be downvoted, not because of your questions, but because you decided to put “please bring the downvotes” at the end of your comment. Why would you undermine yourself by sticking such an antagonistic comment at the end of your post?

machinelabo 6y ago
I removed it. I know its going to be downvoted though. Because it is going against the grain on HN. But, I am being respectful. We've created an atmosphere of fear. I don't feel comfortable voicing my opinions even after being anonymous on the internet. That's pretty fucked up.
- aaomidi 6y ago
  Considering a Pennsylvania law maker made fake Twitter accounts to write "as a gay person", when you start saying you're a non PoC and conflating what happened with Timnit to "firing badly performing PoC"s you do not at all sound genuine. There is no way to prove you are actually PoC. And even if you did, it's incredibly unrelated to the matter at hand. No one has even claimed she was fired for bad performance and dozens of Google employees have said in no part of their process was academic rigor taken into account. What you're doing is the literal definition of concern trolling.
  - machinelabo 6y ago
    That's an insane accusation. You can check my comment history perhaps that will reveal some aspects of it. Also, I am kind of shocked you would accuse of me something like this. WTF. I am not trolling. I am asking a difficult question that needs to be discussed because no one is discussing it.
    - aaomidi 6y ago
      It needs to be discussed? Why on this article then? Why not make a new HN post and discuss this? How is that discussion point related to this article? What part of this article or the events surrounding it suggested there is a fear of firing PoC? There is absolutely no reason to bring this up on this article other than to derail the conversation into FUD.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - seraphsf 6y ago
    She was fired after sending a mass email, to hundreds of colleagues, criticizing her employer in very strong terms. What company wouldn’t fire an exec who sends a “f* this place” email to the company mailing list?
    - joshuamorton 6y ago
      Google, usually. People are highly critical of executives and (relevantly) Google's efforts on diversity and inclusion work all the time.
  - elefanten 6y ago
    You seem to have rigid ideas of what it's possible to experience, believe and be genuine about on the basis of the color of one's skins. Maybe that should be a signal to step back and rethink. You also illustrate beautifully the vapidness of this fad notion of "concern trolling". Because they have not conformed with your view of the issues and used your preferred language, they can only be conceived of as trolling. The other poster seems to be making a genuine effort to express their thoughts and edited their post to be less combative. Yet you can ONLY see them as being dishonest and disingenuous.
- pvg 6y ago
  Downvote goading, things like 'the entire world playing the race card on you' are basically trolling, they don't sound like asking a question in good faith. This particular case is also not about someone being fired for 'not performing' - nobody has claimed that. So if trolling is not your intent, you should edit it down to whatever it is you are actually asking.
  - machinelabo 6y ago
    That's why I removed it. I am asking the questions in good faith. I want to know how the society will avoid having chilling effect of not being able to fire underperformers and making difficult choices when they need to be made. If we cannot sit down and have a peaceful conversation, calling trolls and other non-sense, please don't divulge in this thread.
    - pvg 6y ago
      'playing the race card' and asking about firing for non-performance in the context of a story that does not involve someone being fired for that are not invitations to 'peaceful conversation'. They come off as deliberate provocation. Again, if that's not what you have in mind, just edit it out and focus on whatever it is you want to ask.
    - tptacek 6y ago
      No, I'm sorry, the high horse you're trying to ride here just isn't going to hold the weight of the ideological argument you tried to make. Timnit Gebru was severed from Google because of a conflict between her and the research practices at Google. Moreover, the story begins with her offering an ultimatum and Google preemptively accepting her resignation. No part of this story reasonably involves the "gender differences" and "difficult truths" you're invoking. Dropping boilerplate ideological provocations onto unrelated threads isn't good-faith conversation. Whether you mean it to be or not, it has the effect of trolling, and on HN, trolling is a strict-liability offense; your mens rea matters less than the outcome. Please don't do things like this on HN.
      - 6y ago
- csnover 6y ago
  Sorry, I know this is somewhat off-topic, but I feel like it is important to engage on a human level for a minute. I’m genuinely sorry to hear that you feel uncomfortable voicing your opinions. I know from personal experience how hard it is to feel like you have to keep yourself closed off to the world. As a species generally, and as technologists specifically, we have some way to go to create non-toxic spaces for people to share ideas. Still, you are engaging in fortune telling[0]—you really can’t know that your comments will be downvoted before you make them. Feeling compelled to add notes to the end of your posts encouraging others to downvote is your brain tricking you into tilting the scales to “confirm” what you “knew” to be true. It may feel like a helpful strategy to blunt the emotional pain of discovering that people don’t agree with you all the time, but from what little you’ve said, it sure seems like it’s just reinforcing your negative outlook. I don’t want you to feel bad all the time, and I suspect it is not actually true that most people here are going to disagree and downvote you to oblivion all the time so long as you avoid self-sabotaging. I know it can be incredibly hard not to take downvotes personally, and, I hope you are able to try to reframe them as what they are: some random people, some of whom are thoughtful and some of whom are not, pushing a button. It’s not a personal attack, even though our brains can make it feel very much like it is. If you truly are getting downvoted a lot, it may be a signal that some of your opinions aren’t fully thought through and need to be re-evaluated, or perhaps that you just didn’t present your ideas well. On the other hand, your brain can and will exaggerate the negative experiences, make them seem like they are happening a lot more than they are, and make you feel bad even though you’re actually doing just fine. Anyway, while I’m sure it happens (I don’t think there’s any space that is totally immune to bandwagons), I don’t get the sense that genuine and thoughtful comments regularly get downvoted to oblivion here. It’s trickier than ever these days since there is a lot of bad-faith argumentation going on everywhere online under the guise of innocently “just asking questions”[1], and I think it’s fair to say that there is an growing immune-like reaction which is sometimes attacking genuine posters because it’s just impossible to tell who’s being honest and who’s being a shitty troll. So just keep doing your best, anonymous internet commenter. :-) If you feel like you can’t, I hope you can find a counsellor or friend who will listen and help you into a more positive head space. At the least, your post has generated some reasonable and civil discussion, and that’s what we’re here for, right? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_to_conclusions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_to_conclusions [1] https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions
- Thorrez 6y ago
  Your comment is the top comment.

machinelabo 6y ago

I removed it. I know its going to be downvoted though. Because it is going against the grain on HN. But, I am being respectful. We've created an atmosphere of fear. I don't feel comfortable voicing my opinions even after being anonymous on the internet. That's pretty fucked up.

aaomidi 6y ago
Considering a Pennsylvania law maker made fake Twitter accounts to write "as a gay person", when you start saying you're a non PoC and conflating what happened with Timnit to "firing badly performing PoC"s you do not at all sound genuine. There is no way to prove you are actually PoC. And even if you did, it's incredibly unrelated to the matter at hand. No one has even claimed she was fired for bad performance and dozens of Google employees have said in no part of their process was academic rigor taken into account. What you're doing is the literal definition of concern trolling.
- machinelabo 6y ago
  That's an insane accusation. You can check my comment history perhaps that will reveal some aspects of it. Also, I am kind of shocked you would accuse of me something like this. WTF. I am not trolling. I am asking a difficult question that needs to be discussed because no one is discussing it.
  - aaomidi 6y ago
    It needs to be discussed? Why on this article then? Why not make a new HN post and discuss this? How is that discussion point related to this article? What part of this article or the events surrounding it suggested there is a fear of firing PoC? There is absolutely no reason to bring this up on this article other than to derail the conversation into FUD.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- seraphsf 6y ago
  She was fired after sending a mass email, to hundreds of colleagues, criticizing her employer in very strong terms. What company wouldn’t fire an exec who sends a “f* this place” email to the company mailing list?
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    Google, usually. People are highly critical of executives and (relevantly) Google's efforts on diversity and inclusion work all the time.
- elefanten 6y ago
  You seem to have rigid ideas of what it's possible to experience, believe and be genuine about on the basis of the color of one's skins. Maybe that should be a signal to step back and rethink. You also illustrate beautifully the vapidness of this fad notion of "concern trolling". Because they have not conformed with your view of the issues and used your preferred language, they can only be conceived of as trolling. The other poster seems to be making a genuine effort to express their thoughts and edited their post to be less combative. Yet you can ONLY see them as being dishonest and disingenuous.
pvg 6y ago
Downvote goading, things like 'the entire world playing the race card on you' are basically trolling, they don't sound like asking a question in good faith. This particular case is also not about someone being fired for 'not performing' - nobody has claimed that. So if trolling is not your intent, you should edit it down to whatever it is you are actually asking.
- machinelabo 6y ago
  That's why I removed it. I am asking the questions in good faith. I want to know how the society will avoid having chilling effect of not being able to fire underperformers and making difficult choices when they need to be made. If we cannot sit down and have a peaceful conversation, calling trolls and other non-sense, please don't divulge in this thread.
  - pvg 6y ago
    'playing the race card' and asking about firing for non-performance in the context of a story that does not involve someone being fired for that are not invitations to 'peaceful conversation'. They come off as deliberate provocation. Again, if that's not what you have in mind, just edit it out and focus on whatever it is you want to ask.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    No, I'm sorry, the high horse you're trying to ride here just isn't going to hold the weight of the ideological argument you tried to make. Timnit Gebru was severed from Google because of a conflict between her and the research practices at Google. Moreover, the story begins with her offering an ultimatum and Google preemptively accepting her resignation. No part of this story reasonably involves the "gender differences" and "difficult truths" you're invoking. Dropping boilerplate ideological provocations onto unrelated threads isn't good-faith conversation. Whether you mean it to be or not, it has the effect of trolling, and on HN, trolling is a strict-liability offense; your mens rea matters less than the outcome. Please don't do things like this on HN.
    - 6y ago
csnover 6y ago
Sorry, I know this is somewhat off-topic, but I feel like it is important to engage on a human level for a minute. I’m genuinely sorry to hear that you feel uncomfortable voicing your opinions. I know from personal experience how hard it is to feel like you have to keep yourself closed off to the world. As a species generally, and as technologists specifically, we have some way to go to create non-toxic spaces for people to share ideas. Still, you are engaging in fortune telling[0]—you really can’t know that your comments will be downvoted before you make them. Feeling compelled to add notes to the end of your posts encouraging others to downvote is your brain tricking you into tilting the scales to “confirm” what you “knew” to be true. It may feel like a helpful strategy to blunt the emotional pain of discovering that people don’t agree with you all the time, but from what little you’ve said, it sure seems like it’s just reinforcing your negative outlook. I don’t want you to feel bad all the time, and I suspect it is not actually true that most people here are going to disagree and downvote you to oblivion all the time so long as you avoid self-sabotaging. I know it can be incredibly hard not to take downvotes personally, and, I hope you are able to try to reframe them as what they are: some random people, some of whom are thoughtful and some of whom are not, pushing a button. It’s not a personal attack, even though our brains can make it feel very much like it is. If you truly are getting downvoted a lot, it may be a signal that some of your opinions aren’t fully thought through and need to be re-evaluated, or perhaps that you just didn’t present your ideas well. On the other hand, your brain can and will exaggerate the negative experiences, make them seem like they are happening a lot more than they are, and make you feel bad even though you’re actually doing just fine. Anyway, while I’m sure it happens (I don’t think there’s any space that is totally immune to bandwagons), I don’t get the sense that genuine and thoughtful comments regularly get downvoted to oblivion here. It’s trickier than ever these days since there is a lot of bad-faith argumentation going on everywhere online under the guise of innocently “just asking questions”[1], and I think it’s fair to say that there is an growing immune-like reaction which is sometimes attacking genuine posters because it’s just impossible to tell who’s being honest and who’s being a shitty troll. So just keep doing your best, anonymous internet commenter. :-) If you feel like you can’t, I hope you can find a counsellor or friend who will listen and help you into a more positive head space. At the least, your post has generated some reasonable and civil discussion, and that’s what we’re here for, right? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_to_conclusions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_to_conclusions [1] https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions
Thorrez 6y ago
Your comment is the top comment.