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> Growing up, I kind of thought "Most people are just nice." I had no means to figure out how much was natural charm, how much was me dressing well... > Being

> Growing up, I kind of thought "Most people are just nice." I had no means to figure out how much was natural charm, how much was me dressing well... > Being homeless taught me that, no, most people absolutely are not just nice. I know this will get downvoted but AFAIK most people see homeless people themselves as "not nice" as in "it's not nice to foist your problems on the rest of us", "it's not nice not to take responsibility for yourself", "it's not nice for your to stink up places", "it's not nice for you to foist your crazy on us", etc... In other words, most people are not nice to people they perceive as being not nice to others and so homeless are first perceived as the originator of being "not nice" and so get treated reciprocally. I'm all for helping people who are down and out and help give them a 2nd chance but, for lack of a better way to state this, the homeless person needs to take responsibility and go take advantage of whatever programs are offered vs putting their problems on everyone else. It's a very western thing to think society owes you just for existing.

guntars 6y ago
You will most certainly get donwvoted for it. That said, for people who might think of homeless as "not nice", consider the fraction that are truly problematic and the ones that you might see around, but not really doing anything wrong. The latter group is a lot less memorable, but I'd wager much larger than the former.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  Many people see thr presence of homeless person in public as a personal attack, as though that person has somewhere else to go.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
erikerikson 6y ago
Perhaps a bit more that the homeless pose complex considerations. Are they someone who had bad luck or someone who actively destroyed everything around themselves? If you help them will you waste your energy and in the end hurt them or will it actual assist? Will they be angry with you or even attack because it would be so easy for you to help a lot but you don't? Self judgement over not immediately helping, self limitations in our faces (many of us are closer to homelessness than stability), guilt over not donating more, sadness over our judgments of the homeless, fear over becoming homeless, discomfort with smells or ideas of correlated behaviors, pity, incomplete information... the list of sincere challenges goes on and on. I've got a sister who I love but deeply deserved to be homeless after hurting and spreading ruin on everyone around herself for decades. Anything you did to help she would use to hurt herself and others more. Most down and out people are not her. For those who had a bad circumstance, a leg up has additive economic benefit and benefits us all. Most safety net services are about being ready to support those who are ready to do exactly what you suggest. Many of the rest are there to help them survive to getting to that place. Your final statement seems so zero sum. Our society exists because we find ways to make each other's efforts more productive and effective than they otherwise would be. We're all better off if being better off is scaled. There are defectors but also controls in place.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  No one deserves to be homeless, certainly not deeply.
  - erikerikson 6y ago
    That's a bold universal statement. Imagine we live in a world where everyone is issued housing. To make that more sustainable, we create a lot of group housing. Now imagine that someone in that group housing gets it in their mind that it would make them a YouTube star to burn their house down live. They succeed in their arson and burn their house and the house of all those around them to the ground. This person doesn't deserve to be without a home at least for a little while? [Edit I forgot an even more important class of individuals... The homeless we refer to as hobos (aka the intentional homeless population who choose it as a lifestyle where they are freed from the demands of society and in turn be undemanding upon society). Do not these people deserve to have their homelessness respected? They are a small portion of the population but it seems a valid life strategy and I have had a conversation with the man who described his homelessness in this way and claimed to have friends who felt similarly. Reduce your expenditures sufficiently and it takes very little investment income to have a sustainable life of no obligations. The ethics of economic rents aside. ]
jake789 6y ago
Yh, everything you’ve stated is incorrect. We all live in a society, homeless people included. If everyone has to truly fend for themselves, why should anyone follow the rules? Who’s to stop people from taking whatever they want? And before you state that policing will force them to, who will force the police? So to answer the question you never asked, yes homeless deserve help just for existing, not for their sake but for our. So that their bodies don’t become vectors for disease, so that their kids don’t end up the next generation of criminals and so that we can go to shops without being afraid.
- fastball 6y ago
  You say "deserve" as if it is a moral imperative, but then all of your justifications are utilitarian.
- gfxgirl 6y ago
  I'm going to start directing all homeless people to your house. We'll see how long your tolerate them.
amanaplanacanal 6y ago
I don't know where you are, but in the US we have a nationwide shortage of mental health resources. Sometimes the programs to help people just don't exist. I've been fortunate enough never to find myself in that situation, but I realize that is mostly circumstances that I had no control over. I grew up in a stable home, fell into a career that suited me and paid well, and didn't develop any health issues that made it impossible for me to work. Consider yourself lucky it hasn't happened to you either.

guntars 6y ago

You will most certainly get donwvoted for it. That said, for people who might think of homeless as "not nice", consider the fraction that are truly problematic and the ones that you might see around, but not really doing anything wrong. The latter group is a lot less memorable, but I'd wager much larger than the former.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
alisonkisk 6y ago
Many people see thr presence of homeless person in public as a personal attack, as though that person has somewhere else to go.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

erikerikson 6y ago

Perhaps a bit more that the homeless pose complex considerations. Are they someone who had bad luck or someone who actively destroyed everything around themselves? If you help them will you waste your energy and in the end hurt them or will it actual assist? Will they be angry with you or even attack because it would be so easy for you to help a lot but you don't? Self judgement over not immediately helping, self limitations in our faces (many of us are closer to homelessness than stability), guilt over not donating more, sadness over our judgments of the homeless, fear over becoming homeless, discomfort with smells or ideas of correlated behaviors, pity, incomplete information... the list of sincere challenges goes on and on. I've got a sister who I love but deeply deserved to be homeless after hurting and spreading ruin on everyone around herself for decades. Anything you did to help she would use to hurt herself and others more. Most down and out people are not her. For those who had a bad circumstance, a leg up has additive economic benefit and benefits us all. Most safety net services are about being ready to support those who are ready to do exactly what you suggest. Many of the rest are there to help them survive to getting to that place. Your final statement seems so zero sum. Our society exists because we find ways to make each other's efforts more productive and effective than they otherwise would be. We're all better off if being better off is scaled. There are defectors but also controls in place.

alisonkisk 6y ago
No one deserves to be homeless, certainly not deeply.
- erikerikson 6y ago
  That's a bold universal statement. Imagine we live in a world where everyone is issued housing. To make that more sustainable, we create a lot of group housing. Now imagine that someone in that group housing gets it in their mind that it would make them a YouTube star to burn their house down live. They succeed in their arson and burn their house and the house of all those around them to the ground. This person doesn't deserve to be without a home at least for a little while? [Edit I forgot an even more important class of individuals... The homeless we refer to as hobos (aka the intentional homeless population who choose it as a lifestyle where they are freed from the demands of society and in turn be undemanding upon society). Do not these people deserve to have their homelessness respected? They are a small portion of the population but it seems a valid life strategy and I have had a conversation with the man who described his homelessness in this way and claimed to have friends who felt similarly. Reduce your expenditures sufficiently and it takes very little investment income to have a sustainable life of no obligations. The ethics of economic rents aside. ]

jake789 6y ago

Yh, everything you’ve stated is incorrect. We all live in a society, homeless people included. If everyone has to truly fend for themselves, why should anyone follow the rules? Who’s to stop people from taking whatever they want? And before you state that policing will force them to, who will force the police? So to answer the question you never asked, yes homeless deserve help just for existing, not for their sake but for our. So that their bodies don’t become vectors for disease, so that their kids don’t end up the next generation of criminals and so that we can go to shops without being afraid.

fastball 6y ago
You say "deserve" as if it is a moral imperative, but then all of your justifications are utilitarian.
gfxgirl 6y ago
I'm going to start directing all homeless people to your house. We'll see how long your tolerate them.

amanaplanacanal 6y ago

I don't know where you are, but in the US we have a nationwide shortage of mental health resources. Sometimes the programs to help people just don't exist. I've been fortunate enough never to find myself in that situation, but I realize that is mostly circumstances that I had no control over. I grew up in a stable home, fell into a career that suited me and paid well, and didn't develop any health issues that made it impossible for me to work. Consider yourself lucky it hasn't happened to you either.