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> What happens if taxing the rich doesn't fix it and actually makes things worse? How is it going to be worse if Jeff Bezos is worth $50,000,000,000 instead of

> What happens if taxing the rich doesn't fix it and actually makes things worse? How is it going to be worse if Jeff Bezos is worth $50,000,000,000 instead of $180,000,000,000? I don't get it - America doesn't have a Communist party, what are you picturing happening here? > Disproportionate to what? Me. If he wants a policy to change, he has lobbyists and the Washington Post. If I want to change a policy I have to spend my whole life building a coalition. That's unacceptable for a democracy or a fair capitalist economy. Lots of "what if" and narrow examples here, but we've tried this experiment before, in this country. It worked really well! Economic prosperity, a broad middle class — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal. We've also seen some really gruesome examples of what happens when concentrated wealth is allowed to run amok for too long — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I. Keep nitpicking individual policies, you are missing the bigger picture.

imgabe 6y ago
> How is it going to be worse if Jeff Bezos is worth $50,000,000,000 instead of $180,000,000,000? Hmm, how would it be if Amazon stock dropped in price by 73%? Actually, I think that would be pretty bad. Ironically, least of all for Jeff Bezos. How good would it be for you if your 401k dropped by that much? Or maybe you're thinking we could just confiscate the stock, or force him to sell it. Sell it to whom? Other billionaires? And do you think this wouldn't have an effect on the stock prices (i.e. people's retirement funds) and availability of capital (i.e. money to pay people's salaries)?
- arrosenberg 6y ago
  I'd be fine, I'm not that rich. I'm also not that heavily invested in Amazon, so I'd be even more fine. Again, how will things be worse if Jeff Bezos was worth $50,000,000,000 instead of $180,000,000,000? That's what was supposed - that it would make things worse if we made him pay a fair rate to the American people for helping maintain his wealth.
  - imgabe 6y ago
    Jeff Bezos does not exist in a vacuum. There is no world in which you reduce Bezos' net worth by that much without affecting the rest of the economy. I already mentioned a couple possible effects. I'm sure there are many others including ones that nobody will think of until after they happen. I also don't see how you talk about fair while proposing to enact a special tax to target one specific individual. That seems more like a personal vendetta than an economic policy.
    - arrosenberg 6y ago
      It's strange you won't answer the question. I haven't prescribed what would happen to the money, simply that the rich need to take a haircut to make things more even. If you also pursue a more robust, less concentrated economy more generally, you could certainly invest the money in entrepreneurship, small farms, improved IT infrastructure, etc., etc. That would do more good for the economy than letting Jeff launch it into space. Again, we've done this kind of thing before, and the billionaires and their defenders ho-hummed the same tune, and all that happened was the emergence of the middle class and fairly broad economic prosperity. We've also see what happens when we let the concentration of wealth continue. > That seems more like a personal vendetta than an economic policy. Won't somebody please think of the poor billionaire! I'm using him as an example, because he's first on the list, but feel free to substitute whatever name or array of names you want if it makes it more palatable for you. FWIW, there is historical precedent for passing a tax law targeting the single richest person in the country (John D. Rockerfeller at the time).
      - imgabe 6y ago
        > I haven't prescribed what would happen to the money, simply that the rich need to take a haircut to make things more even Ah, we've reached the crux of the problem. You are not concerned with making things good only with making them even. This is just crab mentality[1]. Someone else has more than you, so you need to pull them down. Or perhaps you've conflated the two and think that if things are even, they will necessarily be good, or at least better than they are when they're uneven. Let me assure you, it is entirely possible for things to become more even and also have everyone be worse off than they were before. > If you also pursue a more robust, less concentrated economy more generally, you could certainly invest the money in entrepreneurship, small farms, improved IT infrastructure, etc., etc. Sure, we can invest in those things. We can also pursue policies (like antitrust enforcement) that would naturally result in less inequality without distorting the market by confiscating and destroying wealth when it reaches some arbitrary number. > Won't somebody please think of the poor billionaire! I stated early on that Bezos and other billionaires would be the people least hurt by what you're proposing. They're not who I'm concerned about. Bezos doesn't have $180,000,000,000 or however much he's currently worth. He has shares representing about 13% of Amazon. Now they're worth that much. Ten years ago they were worth a lot less. 20 years ago they were practically worthless. It's the same shares. The market just collectively decided they're worth a lot more now. He didn't take anything from you, do you see? It's not clear when you're proposing that his shares should only be worth $50B instead of $180B whether that you mean you want to take away a portion of them, or just limit how much they can be worth, or what. Generally stocks are priced based on how much money investors think the company will make in the future. In the aggregate, the price of the stock market overall is our belief in how well the economy will do in the future. When you propose that the value of this should be limited, you're proposing that the economy - everyone - should be collectively poorer in the future. This does happen sometimes, we call it recessions, depressions, etc. It generally does not bode well for the poorest people (billionaires are usually fine though). But hey, who cares if we're all poor right? As long as nobody has any more than anybody else it must necessarily be good. > Again, we've done this kind of thing before, and the billionaires and their defenders ho-hummed the same tune, and all that happened was the emergence of the middle class and fairly broad economic prosperity. It's true the New Deal happened and then a strong middle class emerged some years later, that doesn't mean one caused the other. There was a little thing called World War II as well, and the rest of the productive capacity of the industrial world being destroyed with only America left may have contributed to the abundance of high-paying manufacturing jobs, just a little. > FWIW, there is historical precedent for passing a tax law targeting the single richest person in the country (John D. Rockerfeller at the time). Yeah, there's a historical precedent for burning witches at the stake too, that doesn't mean it's a good thing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
robswc 6y ago
>How is it going to be worse if Jeff Bezos is worth $50,000,000,000 instead of $180,000,000,000? on the inverse, how much worse has it gotten since Jeff Bezos went from $50b to $180b? It keeps coming back to the fact that there is such a focus on "wealth" or whatever. That's like asking "how is this tax bad if it literally makes more tax revenue?" - the answer is that it will have unforeseen consequences (or even foreseen by a lot). >what are you picturing happening here? You're the one even implying its possible, I figured you would have the answer lol >Me. Oh, so anyone with more power than you is bad? What about people that don't even have the privilege of arguing on HN? >That's unacceptable for a democracy or a fair capitalist economy Why? I would probably agree there's limits that should be imposed so that anyone can't just push around whatever law they want but at the same time, how else would you suggest these things work? >Economic prosperity, a broad middle class — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal. Since we're talking about taxes... I checked out the section called "Tax Policy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal#Tax_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal#Tax_policy It literally says here: The bill imposed an income tax of 79% on incomes over $5 million. Since that was an extraordinary high income in the 1930s, the highest tax rate actually covered just one individual—John D. Rockefeller. The bill was expected to raise only about $250 million in additional funds, so revenue was not the primary goal. Morgenthau called it "more or less a campaign document". In a private conversation with Raymond Moley, Roosevelt admitted that the purpose of the bill was "stealing Huey Long's thunder" by making Long's supporters of his own. At the same time, it raised the bitterness of the rich who called Roosevelt "a traitor to his class" and the wealth tax act a "soak the rich tax". The only other thing is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undistributed_profits_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undistributed_profits_tax Which essentially only lasted 3 years... If you're not talking about these things, then I would ask you don't just send a wikipedia link with over 100 subsections lol. >We've also seen some really gruesome examples of what happens when concentrated wealth is allowed to run amok for too long How do you reason all these things are "caused by concentrated wealth"? >Keep nitpicking individual policies, you are missing the bigger picture. The big picture is made up of individual policies... that is actually my entire point. I gave you clear example of what happens when one fails to remember the big picture. You gave me links to wikipedia pages covering topics as broad as WWI and left it at that...

imgabe 6y ago

> How is it going to be worse if Jeff Bezos is worth $50,000,000,000 instead of $180,000,000,000? Hmm, how would it be if Amazon stock dropped in price by 73%? Actually, I think that would be pretty bad. Ironically, least of all for Jeff Bezos. How good would it be for you if your 401k dropped by that much? Or maybe you're thinking we could just confiscate the stock, or force him to sell it. Sell it to whom? Other billionaires? And do you think this wouldn't have an effect on the stock prices (i.e. people's retirement funds) and availability of capital (i.e. money to pay people's salaries)?

arrosenberg 6y ago
I'd be fine, I'm not that rich. I'm also not that heavily invested in Amazon, so I'd be even more fine. Again, how will things be worse if Jeff Bezos was worth $50,000,000,000 instead of $180,000,000,000? That's what was supposed - that it would make things worse if we made him pay a fair rate to the American people for helping maintain his wealth.
- imgabe 6y ago
  Jeff Bezos does not exist in a vacuum. There is no world in which you reduce Bezos' net worth by that much without affecting the rest of the economy. I already mentioned a couple possible effects. I'm sure there are many others including ones that nobody will think of until after they happen. I also don't see how you talk about fair while proposing to enact a special tax to target one specific individual. That seems more like a personal vendetta than an economic policy.
  - arrosenberg 6y ago
    It's strange you won't answer the question. I haven't prescribed what would happen to the money, simply that the rich need to take a haircut to make things more even. If you also pursue a more robust, less concentrated economy more generally, you could certainly invest the money in entrepreneurship, small farms, improved IT infrastructure, etc., etc. That would do more good for the economy than letting Jeff launch it into space. Again, we've done this kind of thing before, and the billionaires and their defenders ho-hummed the same tune, and all that happened was the emergence of the middle class and fairly broad economic prosperity. We've also see what happens when we let the concentration of wealth continue. > That seems more like a personal vendetta than an economic policy. Won't somebody please think of the poor billionaire! I'm using him as an example, because he's first on the list, but feel free to substitute whatever name or array of names you want if it makes it more palatable for you. FWIW, there is historical precedent for passing a tax law targeting the single richest person in the country (John D. Rockerfeller at the time).
    - imgabe 6y ago
      > I haven't prescribed what would happen to the money, simply that the rich need to take a haircut to make things more even Ah, we've reached the crux of the problem. You are not concerned with making things good only with making them even. This is just crab mentality[1]. Someone else has more than you, so you need to pull them down. Or perhaps you've conflated the two and think that if things are even, they will necessarily be good, or at least better than they are when they're uneven. Let me assure you, it is entirely possible for things to become more even and also have everyone be worse off than they were before. > If you also pursue a more robust, less concentrated economy more generally, you could certainly invest the money in entrepreneurship, small farms, improved IT infrastructure, etc., etc. Sure, we can invest in those things. We can also pursue policies (like antitrust enforcement) that would naturally result in less inequality without distorting the market by confiscating and destroying wealth when it reaches some arbitrary number. > Won't somebody please think of the poor billionaire! I stated early on that Bezos and other billionaires would be the people least hurt by what you're proposing. They're not who I'm concerned about. Bezos doesn't have $180,000,000,000 or however much he's currently worth. He has shares representing about 13% of Amazon. Now they're worth that much. Ten years ago they were worth a lot less. 20 years ago they were practically worthless. It's the same shares. The market just collectively decided they're worth a lot more now. He didn't take anything from you, do you see? It's not clear when you're proposing that his shares should only be worth $50B instead of $180B whether that you mean you want to take away a portion of them, or just limit how much they can be worth, or what. Generally stocks are priced based on how much money investors think the company will make in the future. In the aggregate, the price of the stock market overall is our belief in how well the economy will do in the future. When you propose that the value of this should be limited, you're proposing that the economy - everyone - should be collectively poorer in the future. This does happen sometimes, we call it recessions, depressions, etc. It generally does not bode well for the poorest people (billionaires are usually fine though). But hey, who cares if we're all poor right? As long as nobody has any more than anybody else it must necessarily be good. > Again, we've done this kind of thing before, and the billionaires and their defenders ho-hummed the same tune, and all that happened was the emergence of the middle class and fairly broad economic prosperity. It's true the New Deal happened and then a strong middle class emerged some years later, that doesn't mean one caused the other. There was a little thing called World War II as well, and the rest of the productive capacity of the industrial world being destroyed with only America left may have contributed to the abundance of high-paying manufacturing jobs, just a little. > FWIW, there is historical precedent for passing a tax law targeting the single richest person in the country (John D. Rockerfeller at the time). Yeah, there's a historical precedent for burning witches at the stake too, that doesn't mean it's a good thing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

robswc 6y ago

>How is it going to be worse if Jeff Bezos is worth $50,000,000,000 instead of $180,000,000,000? on the inverse, how much worse has it gotten since Jeff Bezos went from $50b to $180b? It keeps coming back to the fact that there is such a focus on "wealth" or whatever. That's like asking "how is this tax bad if it literally makes more tax revenue?" - the answer is that it will have unforeseen consequences (or even foreseen by a lot). >what are you picturing happening here? You're the one even implying its possible, I figured you would have the answer lol >Me. Oh, so anyone with more power than you is bad? What about people that don't even have the privilege of arguing on HN? >That's unacceptable for a democracy or a fair capitalist economy Why? I would probably agree there's limits that should be imposed so that anyone can't just push around whatever law they want but at the same time, how else would you suggest these things work? >Economic prosperity, a broad middle class — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal. Since we're talking about taxes... I checked out the section called "Tax Policy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal#Tax_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal#Tax_policy It literally says here: The bill imposed an income tax of 79% on incomes over $5 million. Since that was an extraordinary high income in the 1930s, the highest tax rate actually covered just one individual—John D. Rockefeller. The bill was expected to raise only about $250 million in additional funds, so revenue was not the primary goal. Morgenthau called it "more or less a campaign document". In a private conversation with Raymond Moley, Roosevelt admitted that the purpose of the bill was "stealing Huey Long's thunder" by making Long's supporters of his own. At the same time, it raised the bitterness of the rich who called Roosevelt "a traitor to his class" and the wealth tax act a "soak the rich tax". The only other thing is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undistributed_profits_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undistributed_profits_tax Which essentially only lasted 3 years... If you're not talking about these things, then I would ask you don't just send a wikipedia link with over 100 subsections lol. >We've also seen some really gruesome examples of what happens when concentrated wealth is allowed to run amok for too long How do you reason all these things are "caused by concentrated wealth"? >Keep nitpicking individual policies, you are missing the bigger picture. The big picture is made up of individual policies... that is actually my entire point. I gave you clear example of what happens when one fails to remember the big picture. You gave me links to wikipedia pages covering topics as broad as WWI and left it at that...