5 ms·

MS is making a conscious effort to push into the ML space with libraries such as ML.NET https://dotnet.microsoft.com/apps/machinelearning-ai/ml-dotnet https://d

by mdm12 6y ago

MS is making a conscious effort to push into the ML space with libraries such as ML.NET https://dotnet.microsoft.com/apps/machinelearning-ai/ml-dotnet https://dotnet.microsoft.com/apps/machinelearning-ai/ml-dotn... . IMO, the combination of a strongly-typed language with features such as type inference, data providers and discriminated unions/pattern matching make F# a perfect fit for this space. It's just unfortunate that they had to go through the .NET Framework -> .NET Core journey before focusing on the ML ecosystem... But, the F# PM has recently given talks recognizing that they want to go into the space that Python is dominating, so it's a clear goal of the F# team (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QnbV6CAWXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QnbV6CAWXc). I hope they're successful!

pjmlp 6y ago
On the other hand, they just hired Guido, have first class support for Python across VS and VSCode, and are in the process of creating a Python projection for UWP (which still doesn't support F#). From the outside it always looks like an uphill battle for F#. It would be great if F# finally gets its place across the .NET stack.
- nbevans 6y ago
  Odd. I've been using F# for a UWP app since 2018.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Odd indeed, given that .NET Native doesn't support it without a couple of hacks. https://github.com/dotnet/corert/issues/5780 https://github.com/dotnet/corert/issues/5780 https://github.com/dotnet/fsharp/issues/1096 https://github.com/dotnet/fsharp/issues/1096
    - nbevans 6y ago
      As per those links - the workarounds found in 2018 allow you to submit to Windows Store. But even still - my app is sideloaded and never needed to care about .NET Native at all.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        Workarounds are not official support and won't fly for many customers deciding what to place in production when picking technology stacks, so the choice ends up being C#, VB, C++, Rust, JavaScript and Python. The official set of programming languages getting UWP support as part of Project Reunion.
        nbevans 6y ago
        WinUI / Project Reunion is just a continuation of the UAP (Universal App Platform) libraries. The support for C# works for F# - just like basically any other C# library can be used from F#. I figure the reason they don't mention F# is because it is obvious and/or implied but perhaps at the same time don't want to infer there is some kind of F#/FP-style syntax. I wouldn't confuse Project Reunion and the arbitrary Windows Store requirement that apps be compiled with .NET Native. A requirement that, frankly, is on borrowed time anyway and I can't envisage it surviving much longer. Once .NET 6 delivers Mono-style AOT support - .NET Native's sole remaining purpose will cease to exist. Not that modern hardware ever needed it. It was intended for Windows Phones. If the choice facing us was a simple as you describe then, for example, we wouldn't have ended up building a UWP app in F# back in 2018, would we? Not everything is black and white nor zero sum.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        Good luck with that reasoning when Windows 10X comes out next year. UWP is still the future of Windows API, Reunion is only lifting it from the Windows kernel, and exposing the respective COM infrastructure on the Win32 side as well. When I create applications for customers I don't select technologies that require me to place workarounds that might make them repent for having me there in first place. Hence why as much as I like F#, it is never going to be an option for me, until it has a seat at the table of the official languages. Apparently that isn't an issue in your case, so good luck with the endeavours.
        nbevans 6y ago
        There is nothing concerning Windows 10X that undermines anything I have said. UWP is the future of Windows - correct. I'm not sure any significant part of UWP has ever been in the kernel per se. It sounds like you're a consultant where taking risks on behalf of your customers, no matter how small or logical the risk, is obviously not part of your job description. Your offerings of good luck appear to be disingenuous.

by mdm12 6y ago

pjmlp 6y ago

On the other hand, they just hired Guido, have first class support for Python across VS and VSCode, and are in the process of creating a Python projection for UWP (which still doesn't support F#). From the outside it always looks like an uphill battle for F#. It would be great if F# finally gets its place across the .NET stack.

nbevans 6y ago
Odd. I've been using F# for a UWP app since 2018.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Odd indeed, given that .NET Native doesn't support it without a couple of hacks. https://github.com/dotnet/corert/issues/5780 https://github.com/dotnet/corert/issues/5780 https://github.com/dotnet/fsharp/issues/1096 https://github.com/dotnet/fsharp/issues/1096
  - nbevans 6y ago
    As per those links - the workarounds found in 2018 allow you to submit to Windows Store. But even still - my app is sideloaded and never needed to care about .NET Native at all.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Workarounds are not official support and won't fly for many customers deciding what to place in production when picking technology stacks, so the choice ends up being C#, VB, C++, Rust, JavaScript and Python. The official set of programming languages getting UWP support as part of Project Reunion.
      - nbevans 6y ago
        WinUI / Project Reunion is just a continuation of the UAP (Universal App Platform) libraries. The support for C# works for F# - just like basically any other C# library can be used from F#. I figure the reason they don't mention F# is because it is obvious and/or implied but perhaps at the same time don't want to infer there is some kind of F#/FP-style syntax. I wouldn't confuse Project Reunion and the arbitrary Windows Store requirement that apps be compiled with .NET Native. A requirement that, frankly, is on borrowed time anyway and I can't envisage it surviving much longer. Once .NET 6 delivers Mono-style AOT support - .NET Native's sole remaining purpose will cease to exist. Not that modern hardware ever needed it. It was intended for Windows Phones. If the choice facing us was a simple as you describe then, for example, we wouldn't have ended up building a UWP app in F# back in 2018, would we? Not everything is black and white nor zero sum.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        Good luck with that reasoning when Windows 10X comes out next year. UWP is still the future of Windows API, Reunion is only lifting it from the Windows kernel, and exposing the respective COM infrastructure on the Win32 side as well. When I create applications for customers I don't select technologies that require me to place workarounds that might make them repent for having me there in first place. Hence why as much as I like F#, it is never going to be an option for me, until it has a seat at the table of the official languages. Apparently that isn't an issue in your case, so good luck with the endeavours.
        nbevans 6y ago
        There is nothing concerning Windows 10X that undermines anything I have said. UWP is the future of Windows - correct. I'm not sure any significant part of UWP has ever been in the kernel per se. It sounds like you're a consultant where taking risks on behalf of your customers, no matter how small or logical the risk, is obviously not part of your job description. Your offerings of good luck appear to be disingenuous.