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But you're doing the thing. The tactic that you agree is bothersome. Edit: I agree that one could incorporate some CRT into their worldview without becoming i

But you're doing the thing. The tactic that you agree is bothersome. Edit: I agree that one could incorporate some CRT into their worldview without becoming insufferable, in fact I think lots of normal people have without calling it that. That said, there are a lot of true believers out there, that's who I was talking about.

dvtrn 6y ago
okay, well since the comment I initially replied to has been edited entirely post hoc to represent an entirely different tenor than what you originally replied with, I guess I need to edit mine as well: No, I'm not doing that right now, I am trying to understand your framing of CRT and where your issues lie with it. It would seem those issues lie with how certain people argue CRT, not CRT itself. Thank you for clarifying that.
- free_rms 6y ago
  I guess my beef is, how come everything is game for criticism EXCEPT the critical theorists? Why can't we analyze their power incentives as well?
  - dvtrn 6y ago
    What stands in your way other than being faced with possible objections to, and responses in kind to whatever your critiques may be? Objections and responses that-I would boldly say-are not stopping you from making said critiques, or rather, they hold no enforceable power that precludes you or anyone from making rebuttals of your own. They are just that, objections and responses. Which you are free to entertain or not, attempt to unpack and understand or not, respond to with better critiques, objections, observations and rebuttals of your own...or not. But you're not being prevented from making them by anyone or anything short of I suppose committing some sort of crime in order to make that point (that's just an extreme example to stretch the metaphor). This is the form and function of debate, it is a crucible that boils away impurities of all manner and dialect (for anyone who may be thinking they've heard this one before, yes, I absolutely stole this from an episode of Star Trek). If you feel you are being stopped from doing any of this, might I ask why and how you have been completely prevented and kept from expressing yourself?
    - free_rms 6y ago
      Alright, here's my substantive criticism of how CRT affects various groups in practice (not doxxing my membership in any of these groups): Elite coastal white: Absolutely not threatened. Beneficiary of the system and knows how to navigate all of the social codes. Less elite or poor white: Takes the bullet that was aimed at the elite white. Asian: Scores way too high on tests for their % of the population and this is a problem for a worldview that cares about what % of college slots go to which races Professional class black or latin: Does great, huge beneficiary of CRT activism Working class black or latin: Invisible and accidentally hurt despite good intentions. CRT proponents tried to pass a referendum legalizing racial discrimination in hiring in California this year, which would have helped professional class POC and probably hurt this class. Fortunately it failed. EDIT: I removed some cattiness above. Not trying to pull the rug out from under you but I'm rate-limited and wanted to focus on my actual points. I don't think I'm a caricature of 'unwoke' person who never thought about or dealt with these things before.
      - dvtrn 6y ago
        We just went through a mini-version of it: the go-to move is that any criticism is immediately labelled as closet white supremacy. Is that what you truly believe I did above? That I am labeling you, and think you to be a white supremacist? If so then allow me to be clear for a moment: I have literally no way of knowing if you're a white supremacist. I have no way of knowing if you're not actually an armada of ants collectively working to actuate the keys of a mechanical keyboard or a Boltzmann brain sending these messages through some strange and baffling form of quantum entanglement. What I am trying to expose is the very real reality that these are uncomfortable conversations, that's just intrinsic to this topic and the climate we are in. This is fine. It is fine to admit being uncomfortable trying to process where we are, how we got here, and how we got out of it. But one has to start by looking that beast in the face first in order to reckon with it. For some, that uncomfort gets unwittingly channeled into anger and frustration and they might not even know why or even realize it, but that can be focused, and turned into knowledge and wisdom on the issues. One's just gotta start, like I said: see it for what it is, and working from there. If you took that to be me associating you with white supremacy, I'll try to find other ways of seeking out clarity from people next time.

dvtrn 6y ago

okay, well since the comment I initially replied to has been edited entirely post hoc to represent an entirely different tenor than what you originally replied with, I guess I need to edit mine as well: No, I'm not doing that right now, I am trying to understand your framing of CRT and where your issues lie with it. It would seem those issues lie with how certain people argue CRT, not CRT itself. Thank you for clarifying that.

free_rms 6y ago
I guess my beef is, how come everything is game for criticism EXCEPT the critical theorists? Why can't we analyze their power incentives as well?
- dvtrn 6y ago
  What stands in your way other than being faced with possible objections to, and responses in kind to whatever your critiques may be? Objections and responses that-I would boldly say-are not stopping you from making said critiques, or rather, they hold no enforceable power that precludes you or anyone from making rebuttals of your own. They are just that, objections and responses. Which you are free to entertain or not, attempt to unpack and understand or not, respond to with better critiques, objections, observations and rebuttals of your own...or not. But you're not being prevented from making them by anyone or anything short of I suppose committing some sort of crime in order to make that point (that's just an extreme example to stretch the metaphor). This is the form and function of debate, it is a crucible that boils away impurities of all manner and dialect (for anyone who may be thinking they've heard this one before, yes, I absolutely stole this from an episode of Star Trek). If you feel you are being stopped from doing any of this, might I ask why and how you have been completely prevented and kept from expressing yourself?
  - free_rms 6y ago
    Alright, here's my substantive criticism of how CRT affects various groups in practice (not doxxing my membership in any of these groups): Elite coastal white: Absolutely not threatened. Beneficiary of the system and knows how to navigate all of the social codes. Less elite or poor white: Takes the bullet that was aimed at the elite white. Asian: Scores way too high on tests for their % of the population and this is a problem for a worldview that cares about what % of college slots go to which races Professional class black or latin: Does great, huge beneficiary of CRT activism Working class black or latin: Invisible and accidentally hurt despite good intentions. CRT proponents tried to pass a referendum legalizing racial discrimination in hiring in California this year, which would have helped professional class POC and probably hurt this class. Fortunately it failed. EDIT: I removed some cattiness above. Not trying to pull the rug out from under you but I'm rate-limited and wanted to focus on my actual points. I don't think I'm a caricature of 'unwoke' person who never thought about or dealt with these things before.
    - dvtrn 6y ago
      We just went through a mini-version of it: the go-to move is that any criticism is immediately labelled as closet white supremacy. Is that what you truly believe I did above? That I am labeling you, and think you to be a white supremacist? If so then allow me to be clear for a moment: I have literally no way of knowing if you're a white supremacist. I have no way of knowing if you're not actually an armada of ants collectively working to actuate the keys of a mechanical keyboard or a Boltzmann brain sending these messages through some strange and baffling form of quantum entanglement. What I am trying to expose is the very real reality that these are uncomfortable conversations, that's just intrinsic to this topic and the climate we are in. This is fine. It is fine to admit being uncomfortable trying to process where we are, how we got here, and how we got out of it. But one has to start by looking that beast in the face first in order to reckon with it. For some, that uncomfort gets unwittingly channeled into anger and frustration and they might not even know why or even realize it, but that can be focused, and turned into knowledge and wisdom on the issues. One's just gotta start, like I said: see it for what it is, and working from there. If you took that to be me associating you with white supremacy, I'll try to find other ways of seeking out clarity from people next time.