4 ms·

> This is little more than gossip unless you can point to something specific that people can judge for themselves. Saying “she basically did X” is a clever way

> This is little more than gossip unless you can point to something specific that people can judge for themselves. Saying “she basically did X” is a clever way to influence how people feel about her. It's gossip as in I haven't seen anyone confirm the validtiy of https://www.platformer.news/p/the-withering-email-that-got-an-ethical https://www.platformer.news/p/the-withering-email-that-got-a... but I've also not seen anyone deny it. In fact, it seems everyone is confirming it unoffically. From the blog post: > "What I want to say is stop writing your documents because it doesn’t make a difference." Is telling your fellow employees to stop working, if their job is writing those documents which I highly suspect it will be. > Whether she was a good employee is kind of beside the point now. I think it goes to show the good faith Google tried to have with someone who in my opinion was creating a hostile work envoirment.

sillysaurusx 6y ago
That is totally not the same thing as telling your fellow employees to stop working. I like to think I’m a pretty reasonable fellow, but it’s hard to see that point of view. I felt similarly to you yesterday. Now I’m not so sure. It sounds like she was criticizing company process and was frustrated not being able to have any impact on what she perceived were real problems to the integrity of the process. I can empathize with that feeling, and I’ve done some embarrassing or unprofessional things when I was younger and slightly less wiser in similar situations. I dunno mate, people here are suddenly trying awfully hard to repeat their points about her personal behavior / paint her as an unprofessional loon. And that’s a pretty convenient distraction if her criticisms were true, wouldn’t you say?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dmix 6y ago
  Even Jeff Dean had to include: > I also feel badly that hundreds of you received an email just this week from Timnit telling you to stop work on critical DEI programs. Please don’t.
  - KittenInABox 6y ago
    Honestly, if a black woman was saying that DEI isn't working at a company, I believe her more than I believe management. Even with a reputation for blowing up at people.
    - that_guy_iain 6y ago
      I don't think that this the narriative here. The narriative is a black woman told people to stop working on DEI. The company begged people to carry on. She says it's not working so they should stop trying.
      - KittenInABox 6y ago
        I think that's a fair concern. If Women and POC are being encouraged by a company to use their time at work on something that doesn't work, they're asking women and POC to sabotage their own careers by diverting their effort from accomplishments the company will actually reward them for, and only asking women and POC to do so.
- ALittleLight 6y ago
  How is saying "stop writing your documents because it doesn’t make a difference" "totally not the same thing as telling your fellow employees to stop working"? Assuming your fellow employees are writing those documents for their job, isn't telling them to stop doing that exactly the same thing?
  - sillysaurusx 6y ago
    She was saying that right now, even if you write such documents, your work essentially won't matter due to some perceived problem with the process. Or at least that's how I read it. You're not wrong. But it's also the least charitable interpretation anyone could have. Why would anyone tell their coworkers "Stop working, go to McDonalds instead"? Nobody would do that, because that would be both unhelpful and dumb. Now, maybe it's true that she was telling her coworkers to come play dota 2 with her for 8 hours on company time. But without far more context, we can't know. And there's almost zero additional information here. Think about how you'd want to be judged. Would you want someone to take a single sentence, stripped of context, and parade it around as if you'd said something you didn't? I wouldn't. Listen, yesterday I was in complete agreement with you and the other commenter. I felt like she might have been an entitled employee, spreading drama wherever she went, and that Google had been generous to humor her for as long as they did. But today I'm (un)surprised to find myself feeling like I was being a judgmental ass based on very little information. Her actions seemed crazy, but now that the dust has settled, it seems like her heart was probably in the right place, and that Jeff was giving her an exceptionally hard time for unclear reasons. Her reaction reminds me very much of how I acted at the breaking point. It gets exhausting to try to work around someone who is determined to stand in your way. The principle of charity applies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity#:~:text=In%20philosophy%20and%20rhetoric%2C%20the,its%20best%2C%20strongest%20possible%20interpretation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity#:~:text=I.... You'd be correct to say that I'm guilty of the same thing in reverse: I'm extrapolating far in the other direction, inventing all kinds of plausible-sounding stories about bully managers and such. But it doesn't feel like mental gymnastics to read her comment as "I am extremely frustrated and disappointed that writing these papers seems not to matter whatsoever, and we should probably take a hard look at whether we're having any effect." That boils right down to "stop writing your documents because it doesn't make a difference," just offensively curt. And yes, phrasing does matter, but people keep saying she said X when it sounds like she said Y.

sillysaurusx 6y ago

That is totally not the same thing as telling your fellow employees to stop working. I like to think I’m a pretty reasonable fellow, but it’s hard to see that point of view. I felt similarly to you yesterday. Now I’m not so sure. It sounds like she was criticizing company process and was frustrated not being able to have any impact on what she perceived were real problems to the integrity of the process. I can empathize with that feeling, and I’ve done some embarrassing or unprofessional things when I was younger and slightly less wiser in similar situations. I dunno mate, people here are suddenly trying awfully hard to repeat their points about her personal behavior / paint her as an unprofessional loon. And that’s a pretty convenient distraction if her criticisms were true, wouldn’t you say?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dmix 6y ago
Even Jeff Dean had to include: > I also feel badly that hundreds of you received an email just this week from Timnit telling you to stop work on critical DEI programs. Please don’t.
- KittenInABox 6y ago
  Honestly, if a black woman was saying that DEI isn't working at a company, I believe her more than I believe management. Even with a reputation for blowing up at people.
  - that_guy_iain 6y ago
    I don't think that this the narriative here. The narriative is a black woman told people to stop working on DEI. The company begged people to carry on. She says it's not working so they should stop trying.
    - KittenInABox 6y ago
      I think that's a fair concern. If Women and POC are being encouraged by a company to use their time at work on something that doesn't work, they're asking women and POC to sabotage their own careers by diverting their effort from accomplishments the company will actually reward them for, and only asking women and POC to do so.
ALittleLight 6y ago
How is saying "stop writing your documents because it doesn’t make a difference" "totally not the same thing as telling your fellow employees to stop working"? Assuming your fellow employees are writing those documents for their job, isn't telling them to stop doing that exactly the same thing?
- sillysaurusx 6y ago
  She was saying that right now, even if you write such documents, your work essentially won't matter due to some perceived problem with the process. Or at least that's how I read it. You're not wrong. But it's also the least charitable interpretation anyone could have. Why would anyone tell their coworkers "Stop working, go to McDonalds instead"? Nobody would do that, because that would be both unhelpful and dumb. Now, maybe it's true that she was telling her coworkers to come play dota 2 with her for 8 hours on company time. But without far more context, we can't know. And there's almost zero additional information here. Think about how you'd want to be judged. Would you want someone to take a single sentence, stripped of context, and parade it around as if you'd said something you didn't? I wouldn't. Listen, yesterday I was in complete agreement with you and the other commenter. I felt like she might have been an entitled employee, spreading drama wherever she went, and that Google had been generous to humor her for as long as they did. But today I'm (un)surprised to find myself feeling like I was being a judgmental ass based on very little information. Her actions seemed crazy, but now that the dust has settled, it seems like her heart was probably in the right place, and that Jeff was giving her an exceptionally hard time for unclear reasons. Her reaction reminds me very much of how I acted at the breaking point. It gets exhausting to try to work around someone who is determined to stand in your way. The principle of charity applies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity#:~:text=In%20philosophy%20and%20rhetoric%2C%20the,its%20best%2C%20strongest%20possible%20interpretation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity#:~:text=I.... You'd be correct to say that I'm guilty of the same thing in reverse: I'm extrapolating far in the other direction, inventing all kinds of plausible-sounding stories about bully managers and such. But it doesn't feel like mental gymnastics to read her comment as "I am extremely frustrated and disappointed that writing these papers seems not to matter whatsoever, and we should probably take a hard look at whether we're having any effect." That boils right down to "stop writing your documents because it doesn't make a difference," just offensively curt. And yes, phrasing does matter, but people keep saying she said X when it sounds like she said Y.