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On a strongly related note, are there any studies on outdoor transmission that are highly credible? I've long assumed that indoor dining is likely a transmissi

by JPKab 6y ago

On a strongly related note, are there any studies on outdoor transmission that are highly credible? I've long assumed that indoor dining is likely a transmission vector, but since LA recently banned outdoor dining, I'm curious about any studies on that. What I've been told is that LA did this with little scientific justification, and that outdoor transmission is rare. However, wondering what people on here more knowledgeable on the subject have found as far as peer reviewed research.

GloriousKoji 6y ago
The problem with "outdoor" dining was all the tents restaurants were setting up in fall/winter. And it's exactly as you imagine it, no airflow or sun exposure with the vinyl / canvas / plastic walls and roofs.
- pdonis 6y ago
  > The problem with "outdoor" dining was all the tents restaurants were setting up in fall/winter. But not in LA, which was what the GP was asking about. LA's climate is fine for regular outdoor dining all year. > no airflow From the paper this thread is discussing, it appears that no airflow is actually lower risk; the higher risk is having directed airflow, from indoor ventilation systems, and being in the path of that airflow from an infected person (and also facing them).
  - natefox 6y ago
    Anecdotally, we've walking a few OC beach towns the last couple weeks.. its _all_ vinyl sided tents everywhere outside. They're keeping in the heat for evening dining. Afternoon dining is pretty easy to do, but dinner seems to be problematic even in OC where I'm at.
    - JPKab 6y ago
      Interesting thing to me is recirculated air vs. contained air. The vinyl sided tents aren't going to have recirculated air like indoors, but yes, the air is certainly not going to be flowing the way it would with no vinyl walls. OC beach towns are as nice as they are unaffordable, lol. I love the restaurants there, though.
      - pdonis 6y ago
        > Interesting thing to me is recirculated air vs. contained air. The paper that started this thread notes that the only people who got infected in the indoor restaurant scenario they studied were the ones in the airflow path. Nobody else did, even though they were all in the same room with the same contained air. So this one study, at least, seems to indicate that just having contained air is lower risk; it's being in the airflow path of recirculated air that is higher risk. That said, there is nothing in the paper that says that having uncontained air outdoors is not even lower risk than contained (but not recirculated) air.
  - foogazi 6y ago
    > LA's climate is fine for regular outdoor dining all year. It gets cold even in LA The weather report for Sunday 12/6/2020 says the temperature in Los Angeles will be 60F at 6pm - and it’s not winter yet
- markkanof 6y ago
  We have a couple places in Portland that setup individual dining tents for just one table. Those were included in the shutdown of indoor dining, even though it seems to me that could be done fairly safely. It's a shame for those restaurants that put the time and money in to do everything possible and they still have to shut down.
markkanof 6y ago
Not sure if there are studies of that or not, but clearly a lot of these decisions are not "science based". Politicians are just taking the easiest path to optimize for a single metric, reduced spread, and ignoring all other concerns.
JPKab 6y ago
I love how my parent question is being downvoted for politely asking a scientific question, in good faith.

by JPKab 6y ago

GloriousKoji 6y ago

The problem with "outdoor" dining was all the tents restaurants were setting up in fall/winter. And it's exactly as you imagine it, no airflow or sun exposure with the vinyl / canvas / plastic walls and roofs.

pdonis 6y ago
> The problem with "outdoor" dining was all the tents restaurants were setting up in fall/winter. But not in LA, which was what the GP was asking about. LA's climate is fine for regular outdoor dining all year. > no airflow From the paper this thread is discussing, it appears that no airflow is actually lower risk; the higher risk is having directed airflow, from indoor ventilation systems, and being in the path of that airflow from an infected person (and also facing them).
- natefox 6y ago
  Anecdotally, we've walking a few OC beach towns the last couple weeks.. its _all_ vinyl sided tents everywhere outside. They're keeping in the heat for evening dining. Afternoon dining is pretty easy to do, but dinner seems to be problematic even in OC where I'm at.
  - JPKab 6y ago
    Interesting thing to me is recirculated air vs. contained air. The vinyl sided tents aren't going to have recirculated air like indoors, but yes, the air is certainly not going to be flowing the way it would with no vinyl walls. OC beach towns are as nice as they are unaffordable, lol. I love the restaurants there, though.
    - pdonis 6y ago
      > Interesting thing to me is recirculated air vs. contained air. The paper that started this thread notes that the only people who got infected in the indoor restaurant scenario they studied were the ones in the airflow path. Nobody else did, even though they were all in the same room with the same contained air. So this one study, at least, seems to indicate that just having contained air is lower risk; it's being in the airflow path of recirculated air that is higher risk. That said, there is nothing in the paper that says that having uncontained air outdoors is not even lower risk than contained (but not recirculated) air.
- foogazi 6y ago
  > LA's climate is fine for regular outdoor dining all year. It gets cold even in LA The weather report for Sunday 12/6/2020 says the temperature in Los Angeles will be 60F at 6pm - and it’s not winter yet
markkanof 6y ago
We have a couple places in Portland that setup individual dining tents for just one table. Those were included in the shutdown of indoor dining, even though it seems to me that could be done fairly safely. It's a shame for those restaurants that put the time and money in to do everything possible and they still have to shut down.

markkanof 6y ago

Not sure if there are studies of that or not, but clearly a lot of these decisions are not "science based". Politicians are just taking the easiest path to optimize for a single metric, reduced spread, and ignoring all other concerns.

JPKab 6y ago

I love how my parent question is being downvoted for politely asking a scientific question, in good faith.