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I think your post is good fodder for the "quantum formalism" described in the article, because it seems like you're getting pretty carried away with interpretat
by b450 6y ago
I think your post is good fodder for the "quantum formalism" described in the article, because it seems like you're getting pretty carried away with interpretation, what with terms like "metaphysics" and the conclusion that chairs are illusions. Some chairs may be illusory, but in general they would reveal themselves as such because you can't, for example, sit in them.
- loopz 6y agoChairs are mostly space, but our interactions with them are solid. This is mostly known and measurable, though not always appreciated. Models are not measurable.
- dleslie 6y agoAll macro-sized things are mostly empty space.
- x3n0ph3n3 6y agoNeutron stars are one of the few exceptions.
- dleslie 6y agoOh right! The universe well and truly is an incredible place.
- ars 6y agoYou don't actually know that. Neutrons are made of quarks, which are probably point like, i.e. the inside of a neutron is entirely empty space.
- sudosysgen 6y agoAnd if they're not, then eventually they're going to be made of something (that is going to be made of something and so on) that is pointlike. Very probably. If not, which will be a surprising result, then it's still going to be empty space.
- x3n0ph3n3 6y agoYeah, but they push the pauli exclusion principle to the extreme, meaning there's hardly anywhere within its structure for particles to not exist.
- ars 6y agoNot mostly empty space, entirely empty space. All fundamental particles are point like and have no physical size. Except ..... that's not the right way to measure size, you measure the size of a particle by the forces interacting with it. By that measure an electron has an infinite size (since an electric field is infinite), and a chair has exactly the size it appears to have, because that's the size measured when you interact with it electromagnetically. Objects don't have one single size, their size varies depending on what tool you use to measure them.
- loopz 6y agoWhat's the "size" of pressure and vibration? All parts, remain as parts of the environment, the whole.
- b450 6y agoIs the suggestion that chairs are illusions because they appear solid but are not in fact? It would be more reasonable to say that chairs _are_ solid, and many solid objects, like chairs, are mostly empty space when considered at the atomic scale.
- mellosouls 6y agoNo, I believe the suggestion of illusion was to convey the fundamental point that the world doesn't exist in the classical objective sense as we are brought up to understand. "Mostly empty space" isn't related, but is a valid point when considering the different matter (pun intended) of the solidity and physical character of macroscopic things like chairs.
- loopz 6y agoInquiry doesn't need to reinterpret facts.
- mellosouls 6y agoJust pointing out two different things: chair mostly space (true) vs chair existing as an object "out there" in the clearly definable way we normally understand (false). "Illusion" in its usage here referred to the latter.
- loopz 6y agoDepending on reference, both are true, and false. Logic is not probabilistic, but it is referential and not absolute.
- nobodyandproud 6y agoIt’s irrelevant to the argument and a strawman Just because something isn’t the way we expected doesn’t imply that there isn’t an objective, underlying reality. And that’s the heart of what nonlocal deterministic interpretations try to answer. Given the chance.
- mellosouls 6y agoI think the point was that there isn't an objective world in the classically understood sense, and our refusal to accept that since it was discovered a century ago has no bearing on the truth of it; I'm not suggesting the language and imagery were perfect, but the chair example was clearly accompanied by an equally illusory "you" sitting on it.
- loopz 6y agoThere's just no contradiction. The deepening of knowledge doesnt't contradict prior observations. All hypotheses may and should be contradicted though.
- mellosouls 6y agoQuantum mechanics pretty much overturned our understanding of the world; it produced a qualitatively different world view to that of classical theories (including GR), more than just a deepening in that sense.
- loopz 6y agoDepends on who is understanding or not, if they reject it. However, evolving perspective is good as we see past assumptions, not facts, are always wrong to some extent. Not sure how QM changed who though. That everything is interconnected and complex, is not new logic at all. Maybe this brings artifacts across scales too. However we only observe effects. Period. Maybe what is needed is humility.