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Her spat against Yann LeCun felt very wrong to me. That is not how fellow academics/researchers should treat each other. Maybe Yann LeCun was wrong, the way sh

Her spat against Yann LeCun felt very wrong to me. That is not how fellow academics/researchers should treat each other. Maybe Yann LeCun was wrong, the way she conveyed the message disregarding any knowledge he might have on this was definitely not civil. She could have chosen a different way to address the complaints here, not by getting overtly confrontational. Maybe the review group got it wrong, maybe they were right. But that is not how you handle disputes.

whimsicalism 6y ago
> definitely not civil. I agree that people should try to be kind and charitable to each other, and this conversation didn't show that. That said, I think we also have to be cognizant of the way "civility" is not objective/neutral, often relies on codifying the norms of a dominant majority, and also preserves the status quo. It might not have been very "civil" for instance when Google employees walked out of the office, but I also don't think it was "civil" when Google paid $90 million to someone fired for sexual harassment. Sometimes big problems can't be met just with civil discourse, it's why many of us still voted for Biden (for instance) even after he told Trump to "shut up."
- ivalm 6y ago
  What about paying $90 million to the key person in creation of android? Honestly, he is a scumbag, but that doesn’t nullify his contribution to google (?) it’s not that he was paid for sexual harassment, it’s that he got paid for being creator of one of the most important products in the world.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    Was he laboring for free before that?
    - ivalm 6y ago
      He was laboring with contracts that stipulated severance, which got paid out.
      - whimsicalism 6y ago
        This is a lie, do some reading about it.
      - ceph_ 6y ago
        Getting fired for sexual harassment seems like an easy way to lose your severance package
  - CydeWeys 6y ago
    He sold Android to Google in 2005 for a hefty sum, and he drew a large salary and stock package every year since. Why in the world would he need a $90M exit package on top of all that when he's being fired for severe workplace misconduct? He already got paid for those contributions.
    - busterarm 6y ago
      Because Android is arguably worth a hell of a lot more than the $50 million + salary that he received and if they didn't kick him some money, they would never be able to make a similar acquisition deal in the future. Nobody would sell a technology like that for that little and Google would have to forever compete with future-Androids. If they had fired him under more favorable circumstances his payout would have been significantly higher.
      - CydeWeys 6y ago
        He sold the company to them in 2005. If he didn't think that was a fair price he wouldn't have agreed to the sale. That was when he was compensated for his creation. After that, he was compensated through salary. I don't understand your point of view here. If I sell something to someone else, I'm not expecting to get more payout for it fifteen years down the line unless some kind of residual was explicitly negotiated in the original sale agreement. Acquisitions would never happen at all if the acquiring company was on the hook for unbounded amounts of money decades later just because they made it successful. This point of view seems very un-businesslike. Andy Rubin was not owed that $90M, it shouldn't have been paid to him, and Google has admitted to its mistake and will not be paying out in similar cases going forward.
        busterarm 6y ago
        1. It was an aquihire. Usually there's some performance secondary payout strings attached. 2. It doesn't matter what their deal was. It matters what public perception is. I'm talking entirely about public perception. Regardless of what their deal was, Google has to send a signal that _impacts future deals_. If the general developer public thinks that Android was acquired for too little, then we will all be reluctant to sell our projects to Google. That's the whole point. It has nothing to do with him thinking Google treated him fairly. It has to do with whether we think we could keep a company going long enough to make more money than his payout on _our_ work. Google needs to make more Android-like deals in the future.
- pugetsounds 6y ago
  What about the context of their interaction warranted the tone her response? There’s a time and place for incivility, but that was not it.
- laretluval 6y ago
  > "civility" is not objective/neutral, often relies on codifying the norms of a dominant majority, and also preserves the status quo. In this case, the norm in question was respectful argumentation grounded in empirical evidence. Why does it matter that that norm belongs to a dominant majority?
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    > Why does it matter that that norm belongs to a dominant majority? It matters a. if the norm is actually universally applied - I find that this norm of respectful argumentation is not universally applied. Remember: this is a twitter argument entirely unrelated to what Timnit is under discussion for now. Elon Musk and Linus have had unrelated arguments where they engaged in very offensive argumentation (calling their opponents pedophiles, telling them to kill themselves) without any evidence, yet I rarely see these issues brought up on unrelated issues about them. But for Timnit, it's a scarlet letter she has to bear. b. I think we substantially underestimate how frustrating it might be to be a scientist of color where people are constantly discounting your expertise (because, yes, Timnit is an expert.) I'm sure seeing that same sentiment for the ith+1 time can evoke strong emotions and we are not necessarily seeing the context. Regardless, maybe not an incredible look for Timnit but not super huge in the context of a large body of work.
kenjackson 6y ago
I've tried to piece together the debate with LeCun, but I can't find anything she said that seemed all that bad. It seemed like, if anything, she just simply wouldn't let him off the hook. And it's very possible I missed several tweets that were really toxic...
- Certhas 6y ago
  Also, to put the double standard here into context, HN comment threads always had plenty of people defending Linus Torvalds tone.
  - 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
    And plenty of people attacking him. Every Linus thread has a massive debate about him being an asshole. Just like in this thread there are plenty on each side. Where’s the double standard?
    - whimsicalism 6y ago
      A quick look through a few of the last Linus threads and there is a lot more "taking his word as gospel" over calling him an asshole: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23739076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23739076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22176032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22176032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22005181 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22005181
      - 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
        I was thinking threads from before his big "shit, i'm an asshole, sorry. gonna take time off" phase. Maybe I have a selective memory, but I'm remembering threads from those couple years before and after Susan Fowler and Uber's culture implosion. It felt like there was a shift in how the whole industry felt about brilliant assholes around then (thank god). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18000698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18000698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18083859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18083859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16508921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16508921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8415603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8415603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2372096 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2372096 I think the threads in articles specifically about Linus are better comparisons to this, rather than articles about computing that involve him. But, hey, folk like Torvalds and Gebru both really rub me the wrong way, so it's reasonable that I might be selectively remembering threads where HN said I'm right and that he's an asshole (and I did a lazy googling of "linus torvalds asshole site:news.ycombinator.com" which is biased too), so who knows.
Certhas 6y ago
By the judgement of her colleagues inside google this was not a normal internal review process, and according to her own writing, she tried to engage with the review process but was blocked. Also, to quote LeCunn: “I’d like to ask everyone to please stop attacking each other via Twitter or other means. In particular, I’d like everyone to please stop attacking @timnitGebru and everyone who has been critical of my posts… Farewell everyone.”

whimsicalism 6y ago

> definitely not civil. I agree that people should try to be kind and charitable to each other, and this conversation didn't show that. That said, I think we also have to be cognizant of the way "civility" is not objective/neutral, often relies on codifying the norms of a dominant majority, and also preserves the status quo. It might not have been very "civil" for instance when Google employees walked out of the office, but I also don't think it was "civil" when Google paid $90 million to someone fired for sexual harassment. Sometimes big problems can't be met just with civil discourse, it's why many of us still voted for Biden (for instance) even after he told Trump to "shut up."

ivalm 6y ago
What about paying $90 million to the key person in creation of android? Honestly, he is a scumbag, but that doesn’t nullify his contribution to google (?) it’s not that he was paid for sexual harassment, it’s that he got paid for being creator of one of the most important products in the world.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  Was he laboring for free before that?
  - ivalm 6y ago
    He was laboring with contracts that stipulated severance, which got paid out.
    - whimsicalism 6y ago
      This is a lie, do some reading about it.
    - ceph_ 6y ago
      Getting fired for sexual harassment seems like an easy way to lose your severance package
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  He sold Android to Google in 2005 for a hefty sum, and he drew a large salary and stock package every year since. Why in the world would he need a $90M exit package on top of all that when he's being fired for severe workplace misconduct? He already got paid for those contributions.
  - busterarm 6y ago
    Because Android is arguably worth a hell of a lot more than the $50 million + salary that he received and if they didn't kick him some money, they would never be able to make a similar acquisition deal in the future. Nobody would sell a technology like that for that little and Google would have to forever compete with future-Androids. If they had fired him under more favorable circumstances his payout would have been significantly higher.
    - CydeWeys 6y ago
      He sold the company to them in 2005. If he didn't think that was a fair price he wouldn't have agreed to the sale. That was when he was compensated for his creation. After that, he was compensated through salary. I don't understand your point of view here. If I sell something to someone else, I'm not expecting to get more payout for it fifteen years down the line unless some kind of residual was explicitly negotiated in the original sale agreement. Acquisitions would never happen at all if the acquiring company was on the hook for unbounded amounts of money decades later just because they made it successful. This point of view seems very un-businesslike. Andy Rubin was not owed that $90M, it shouldn't have been paid to him, and Google has admitted to its mistake and will not be paying out in similar cases going forward.
      - busterarm 6y ago
        1. It was an aquihire. Usually there's some performance secondary payout strings attached. 2. It doesn't matter what their deal was. It matters what public perception is. I'm talking entirely about public perception. Regardless of what their deal was, Google has to send a signal that _impacts future deals_. If the general developer public thinks that Android was acquired for too little, then we will all be reluctant to sell our projects to Google. That's the whole point. It has nothing to do with him thinking Google treated him fairly. It has to do with whether we think we could keep a company going long enough to make more money than his payout on _our_ work. Google needs to make more Android-like deals in the future.
pugetsounds 6y ago
What about the context of their interaction warranted the tone her response? There’s a time and place for incivility, but that was not it.
laretluval 6y ago
> "civility" is not objective/neutral, often relies on codifying the norms of a dominant majority, and also preserves the status quo. In this case, the norm in question was respectful argumentation grounded in empirical evidence. Why does it matter that that norm belongs to a dominant majority?
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > Why does it matter that that norm belongs to a dominant majority? It matters a. if the norm is actually universally applied - I find that this norm of respectful argumentation is not universally applied. Remember: this is a twitter argument entirely unrelated to what Timnit is under discussion for now. Elon Musk and Linus have had unrelated arguments where they engaged in very offensive argumentation (calling their opponents pedophiles, telling them to kill themselves) without any evidence, yet I rarely see these issues brought up on unrelated issues about them. But for Timnit, it's a scarlet letter she has to bear. b. I think we substantially underestimate how frustrating it might be to be a scientist of color where people are constantly discounting your expertise (because, yes, Timnit is an expert.) I'm sure seeing that same sentiment for the ith+1 time can evoke strong emotions and we are not necessarily seeing the context. Regardless, maybe not an incredible look for Timnit but not super huge in the context of a large body of work.

kenjackson 6y ago

I've tried to piece together the debate with LeCun, but I can't find anything she said that seemed all that bad. It seemed like, if anything, she just simply wouldn't let him off the hook. And it's very possible I missed several tweets that were really toxic...

Certhas 6y ago
Also, to put the double standard here into context, HN comment threads always had plenty of people defending Linus Torvalds tone.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
  And plenty of people attacking him. Every Linus thread has a massive debate about him being an asshole. Just like in this thread there are plenty on each side. Where’s the double standard?
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    A quick look through a few of the last Linus threads and there is a lot more "taking his word as gospel" over calling him an asshole: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23739076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23739076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22176032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22176032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22005181 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22005181
    - 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
      I was thinking threads from before his big "shit, i'm an asshole, sorry. gonna take time off" phase. Maybe I have a selective memory, but I'm remembering threads from those couple years before and after Susan Fowler and Uber's culture implosion. It felt like there was a shift in how the whole industry felt about brilliant assholes around then (thank god). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18000698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18000698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18083859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18083859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16508921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16508921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8415603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8415603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2372096 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2372096 I think the threads in articles specifically about Linus are better comparisons to this, rather than articles about computing that involve him. But, hey, folk like Torvalds and Gebru both really rub me the wrong way, so it's reasonable that I might be selectively remembering threads where HN said I'm right and that he's an asshole (and I did a lazy googling of "linus torvalds asshole site:news.ycombinator.com" which is biased too), so who knows.

Certhas 6y ago

By the judgement of her colleagues inside google this was not a normal internal review process, and according to her own writing, she tried to engage with the review process but was blocked. Also, to quote LeCunn: “I’d like to ask everyone to please stop attacking each other via Twitter or other means. In particular, I’d like everyone to please stop attacking @timnitGebru and everyone who has been critical of my posts… Farewell everyone.”