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> Programmers who don’t code in their spare time for fun will never become as good as those that do. I think this opinion is much misunderstood. It should rea

> Programmers who don’t code in their spare time for fun will never become as good as those that do. I think this opinion is much misunderstood. It should read: people who are not interested in what they are doing are unlikely to ever become very good at it. People who are interested in a topic will have their brains work overtime at different times of day, will be picking up information even if they are not specifically looking for it, will be trying to understand stuff they are not specifically required to, and so on. As pointed by some people (like David Allen) our brains have something called Reticular Activation System which, if programmed, brings to our conscious attention when something interesting happens. And then we will also have easier time keeping focus. People who like coding will probably not see it as only work but also choose to do it in their own time and that usually results in private projects. I do electronics at home and this usually includes some kind of microcontroller and coding, just because I like it. But I don't have public repositories and I don't do open source projects because I do my own fun projects at work and get directly rewarded for it.

myspy 6y ago
That's a good view on that opinion. I've kids and a wife that has a job, the spare time is taken up by them and the time I need to rest. I would if I had the time, but I'm interested in each and everything when working.
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
This is also deeply misunderstood as an interview question. The idea that interviewers will reject candidates for not programming outside of work is a persistent meme now. The truth is that (good) interviewers don't care when/where/how you acquired your skills and knowledge. They just care that you have the knowledge and ability, and also that your learning is on a consistent upward trajectory. We ask if people do side projects not because side projects are mandatory, but because the goal of an interview is to surface any and every reason to believe the candidate is qualified. In practice, most engineers don't put side projects or hobby projects on their resume or even their GitHub profiles, and they won't spontaneously bring it up during the interview. Asking if they've worked on any fun hobby projects usually strikes up good conversation, loosens up the candidate, and maybe unearths some skills and interests that don't show up on the resume. If a candidate says they don't program outside of work, it's not a negative. It's neutral. We just move on.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  As an interviewer I can only agree. I look for signs that the person is interested in what they are doing. Private projects with public repositories are a sign but nowadays I see people started showing up who force themselves to do these projects just to improve their interview prospects. I even had one person admit it when it was obvious they can't tell me anything about their own project. Obviously, this is a result of a very know effect where judging performance based on some measurements causes people to pervert this measurement. Other signs that people overlook and misunderstand is deep knowledge on any topic related to software development. If somebody could acquire good, deep understanding of at least one topic it shows they were likely at least at some point interested in it. People are sometimes put off that I seem to be asking large number of hard questions and then grilling to death, but that's what I am doing, looking for signs of being interested in something. I even have one question where I ask: What is the question you would like me to ask you? That's just another occasion to have a discussion on something where the candidate can demonstrate their deep knowledge.
  - PragmaticPulp 6y ago
    > but nowadays I see people started showing up who force themselves to do these projects just to improve their interview prospects. As an interviewer, it's fascinating to read forums like /r/cscareerquestions where people are working hard to game the interview system. Coding Bootcamps have also become bad at training students to pass interviews by practicing coding questions and putting cookie-cutter "side projects" in their GitHub profile. One of our local coding bootcamps had students post their class projects to GitHub as "side projects" to show to interviewers. The catch was that every graduate from the boot camp had the exact same "side projects" that followed the same formula. As an interviewer, it's amazing to see people arrive at interviews with an idea that we're just robots trying to check items off of a checklist. The internet pop-culture view of coding interviews is that they're just arbitrary gatekeeping that can be bypassed if you simply know which magic words to say to your robot interviewers. Tip for interviewers: Speak to your interviewers as if they were your future peers or managers.
    - 6y ago
warmwaffles 6y ago
As I get older, I start realizing that I don't want to spend my free time coding all the time. I do like to take that time to build something with my hands, fix things around the home. I feel those are good critical thinking tasks and great experiences that can be applied to programming.
lastofthemojito 6y ago
>If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry I've noticed this in my software work. When I'm on a project that I'm personally excited by, I feel like I'm firing on all cylinders and am vastly more productive. Driven by COVID fear, I switched jobs over the summer to a company that would allow me to work from home. I'm not at all interested in the project I'm working on. And I feel like it shows...I don't retain things that coworkers have already explained, I don't feel a drive to learn more than necessary about the domain, etc. Maybe some of it is just COVID-brain, but my goodness being interested in your work makes a world of difference.
commandlinefan 6y ago
#1: "Programmers who don’t code in their spare time for fun will never become as good as those that do." #17: "Software development is just a job."
- lmilcin 6y ago
  I don't think there is any problem here. Not everybody has to be uber excited about everything they do. I surely can empathize with every person that wants to have a well paying job but just don't feel anything towards anything that is well paying. Just set your expectations realistically. If you are of slightly above average intelligence and you are not uber excited about programming (ie. typical developer), chances are you are never going to be rock star developer. Plan your career realistically taking that into account. Maybe work in area that doesn't require changing entire stack every 2 years? My friend decided consciously (we had a discussion) he is not ambitious but still wants to earn. He is now Cobol developer working with people that are on average twice his age. He has been and will be well paid for many years. He works 8h day, has time for his kids and other interests. He says he couldn't be happier.
- moron4hire 6y ago
  Programming is not the same thing as software development. Software development requires programming, among many other things. Programming need not be towards the acct of software development. More specifically, I wouldn't call solving Project Euler problems "software development". It's a game, a puzzle, that requires programming. And I wouldn't call requirements analysis, UI design, testing, etc., "programming", But they are fundamental aspects of software development. It's possible to treat programming as a calling and software development an occupation.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

myspy 6y ago

That's a good view on that opinion. I've kids and a wife that has a job, the spare time is taken up by them and the time I need to rest. I would if I had the time, but I'm interested in each and everything when working.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

This is also deeply misunderstood as an interview question. The idea that interviewers will reject candidates for not programming outside of work is a persistent meme now. The truth is that (good) interviewers don't care when/where/how you acquired your skills and knowledge. They just care that you have the knowledge and ability, and also that your learning is on a consistent upward trajectory. We ask if people do side projects not because side projects are mandatory, but because the goal of an interview is to surface any and every reason to believe the candidate is qualified. In practice, most engineers don't put side projects or hobby projects on their resume or even their GitHub profiles, and they won't spontaneously bring it up during the interview. Asking if they've worked on any fun hobby projects usually strikes up good conversation, loosens up the candidate, and maybe unearths some skills and interests that don't show up on the resume. If a candidate says they don't program outside of work, it's not a negative. It's neutral. We just move on.

lmilcin 6y ago
As an interviewer I can only agree. I look for signs that the person is interested in what they are doing. Private projects with public repositories are a sign but nowadays I see people started showing up who force themselves to do these projects just to improve their interview prospects. I even had one person admit it when it was obvious they can't tell me anything about their own project. Obviously, this is a result of a very know effect where judging performance based on some measurements causes people to pervert this measurement. Other signs that people overlook and misunderstand is deep knowledge on any topic related to software development. If somebody could acquire good, deep understanding of at least one topic it shows they were likely at least at some point interested in it. People are sometimes put off that I seem to be asking large number of hard questions and then grilling to death, but that's what I am doing, looking for signs of being interested in something. I even have one question where I ask: What is the question you would like me to ask you? That's just another occasion to have a discussion on something where the candidate can demonstrate their deep knowledge.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  > but nowadays I see people started showing up who force themselves to do these projects just to improve their interview prospects. As an interviewer, it's fascinating to read forums like /r/cscareerquestions where people are working hard to game the interview system. Coding Bootcamps have also become bad at training students to pass interviews by practicing coding questions and putting cookie-cutter "side projects" in their GitHub profile. One of our local coding bootcamps had students post their class projects to GitHub as "side projects" to show to interviewers. The catch was that every graduate from the boot camp had the exact same "side projects" that followed the same formula. As an interviewer, it's amazing to see people arrive at interviews with an idea that we're just robots trying to check items off of a checklist. The internet pop-culture view of coding interviews is that they're just arbitrary gatekeeping that can be bypassed if you simply know which magic words to say to your robot interviewers. Tip for interviewers: Speak to your interviewers as if they were your future peers or managers.
  - 6y ago

warmwaffles 6y ago

As I get older, I start realizing that I don't want to spend my free time coding all the time. I do like to take that time to build something with my hands, fix things around the home. I feel those are good critical thinking tasks and great experiences that can be applied to programming.

lastofthemojito 6y ago

>If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. --Antoine de Saint-Exupéry I've noticed this in my software work. When I'm on a project that I'm personally excited by, I feel like I'm firing on all cylinders and am vastly more productive. Driven by COVID fear, I switched jobs over the summer to a company that would allow me to work from home. I'm not at all interested in the project I'm working on. And I feel like it shows...I don't retain things that coworkers have already explained, I don't feel a drive to learn more than necessary about the domain, etc. Maybe some of it is just COVID-brain, but my goodness being interested in your work makes a world of difference.

commandlinefan 6y ago

#1: "Programmers who don’t code in their spare time for fun will never become as good as those that do." #17: "Software development is just a job."

lmilcin 6y ago
I don't think there is any problem here. Not everybody has to be uber excited about everything they do. I surely can empathize with every person that wants to have a well paying job but just don't feel anything towards anything that is well paying. Just set your expectations realistically. If you are of slightly above average intelligence and you are not uber excited about programming (ie. typical developer), chances are you are never going to be rock star developer. Plan your career realistically taking that into account. Maybe work in area that doesn't require changing entire stack every 2 years? My friend decided consciously (we had a discussion) he is not ambitious but still wants to earn. He is now Cobol developer working with people that are on average twice his age. He has been and will be well paid for many years. He works 8h day, has time for his kids and other interests. He says he couldn't be happier.
moron4hire 6y ago
Programming is not the same thing as software development. Software development requires programming, among many other things. Programming need not be towards the acct of software development. More specifically, I wouldn't call solving Project Euler problems "software development". It's a game, a puzzle, that requires programming. And I wouldn't call requirements analysis, UI design, testing, etc., "programming", But they are fundamental aspects of software development. It's possible to treat programming as a calling and software development an occupation.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]