6 ms·

I find this rather scary - the internet is not a public utility yet it is required for more and more government services.

by dalben 6y ago

aboringusername 6y ago
Emails could certainly do with some maturing, both in protocol for security/privacy (yeah, I know...) and in terms of accessibility. I am not sure society is completely ready for a fully digital world just yet; emails, phone numbers, authentication, username, passwords, 2FA codes, biometrics... Gmail should absolutely be taken away from Google's influence and treated as a public utility (free for everyone for life).
- metiscus 6y ago
  I support the concept of USPS offering email services for official purposes. I don't really support nationalizing Gmail.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
foxrider 6y ago
Yes, and the government would not provide you an email address, meaning you are given a choice of either using a "free" email service that would sell your data or paying a premium to a private hoster. I am not even considering self hosting because it's not something an average person could do.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
dlkinney 6y ago
While I have objections to internet-based government interaction, access is not one I worry much about. We have government-funded libraries all across the country that provide internet access. While I believe that mail should always be an option, ease of access is something that I think is over-valued when it comes to government. That's not to say that I don't appreciate convenience. Convenience and a broad range of availability are good things. But at the same time, I don't hold the belief that government owes us convenience. So with that said, and excepting arguments of convenience of availability of internet, I think it's hard to make the case that someone may be excluded just because they don't have internet. Used to be some people had to ride half a day on a horse to conduct some government business. To me, that is the baseline, and anything beyond that is a privileged blessing, NOT a necessity. I know this is a very unpopular opinion.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  All the libraries have been closed for almost a year.
  - bigwavedave 6y ago
    Must be relative from area to area- my fiancee and her sister do most of their college classwork at the library because campus is closed.
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
      Every public library I've seen up and down the East Coast, dozens of towns and cities, is closed. Some allow book checkouts at the door. Are you referring to campus library or public? What state?
      - bigwavedave 6y ago
        Ahhhhh my mistake, she's informed me it's the campus library. The lecture halls and general campus is shut down, the library remains open for limited hours.
- travisporter 6y ago
  This is an unpopular opinion for sure! - Although much improved over the last decade, library internet is still quite slow and often the desktop computers are riddled with spyware. Yeah, everyone has cell phones, but a temporarily homeless person should still be able to do coursework (obviously a very naive example but still happens) - Here's an exaggerated counterargument to your convenience argument: What if you had to travel to your state capital to vote or register for a marriage license?
- WarChortle 6y ago
  Used to be some people had to ride half a day on a horse to conduct some government business. To me, that is the baseline, and anything beyond that is a privileged blessing, NOT a necessity. I'm sorry what? This isn't the 1800's anymore, this way of thinking just astounds me. How can you anyone look at our modern times and say as long as your a half days horse ride away from a government office you got everything you need. You're ignoring that fact most people don't even have horses. Cars have existed for over 100 years now. You could at-least factor that into your baseline. If we never move the baseline up then we lose the will to advance. We strip the upward mobility of our poorer citizens. ease of access is something that I think is over-valued when it comes to government The harder it is for your average citizen to due something the less likely they are to do it. It discriminates against the people who need help the most and concentrates power into fewer and fewer hands. Take starting a Business for example, the harder it is the less people will do it. This is bad for our economy and society as a whole. Less small businesses means less jobs, less ways for people to lift themselves out of poverty. The more difficult Government is to interface with the more time someone has to devote to dealing with it. It means less time to focus on education or a small business, or their family, or health. It means they are more likely to be stuck where they are. Ease of Access to Government resources can be directly correlated to some peoples quality of life. Think of Food stamps or welfare to the people who need it. I think it's hard to make the case that someone may be excluded just because they don't have internet No, its pretty easy, most libraries have been closed due to Covid. Many people might not have reliable access to the internet atm. Which in the supposed best country on Earth is scary.
no_wizard 6y ago
I’ve always been of the mind that the USPS should provide an official government email of sorts. Something you sign up for in person or in some other verifiable way and that is your email address that you can use for government services and the like. This would ensure you have an email that exists for public service and is managed accordingly Bit of a pipe dream however I think the idea has real merit
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  This is not a pipe dream at all. Call your Congressional rep and ask for legislation to provide this. Asking only costs your time, and you're on the right track (USPS providing this service, so they can do in-person verifications). This would then enable more government services to move to email first for correspondence, but care would need to be taken that comms fall back to phone or physical mail for exceptions (for example, FCC should fall back to SMS and/or paper mail if email bounces back).
  - Simulacra 6y ago
    ...and this is what you'll get back because I used to write responses like these for a congressional office for years: Thank you toomuchtodo for writing to me about government services to move to email first for correspondence. As you know, I have always supported government accountability and efficiency, and will certainly consider this should legislation come up about it. Please continue to keep me informed about the issues that are important to you. Sincerely, your Congressional Representative.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - tzs 6y ago
    > This is not a pipe dream at all. Call your Congressional rep and ask for legislation to provide this. Asking only costs your time, and you're on the right track (USPS providing this service, so they can do in-person verifications). Do that, but go a little farther. You should be able to register with the USPS to get a universal ID (UID), and then associate both a mailing address and an email address with that UID. USPS would then provide both an email address and virtual mailing address that incorporate the UID. Email sent to that email address would forward to the real email address associated with the UID, and physical mail sent to the virtual mailing address would be delivered to the associated physical mailing address. I'd like to see them also offer an ID verification service, that provides a way for you to verify to a third party that you control a particular UID. This could provide a robust account recovery mechanism for other services. Right now, if an account at some service gets hijacked, or you simply forget or lose your credentials, recovery usually depends on SMS or on email. The problem with those is that they too can be hijacked, and their recovery also depends on SMS or email. You end up with a tangled mess of dependencies. A way to fix this is to organize account recovery as a tree. At the root you have some service where recovery requires that you physically show up at their office and present proof of identity, such as a passport. Then directly under the root you might have your main email account or your main mobile phone account. Account recovery for those would involve verifying your identity with the root. Below those, you might have your social media accounts, your utility accounts, and so on. Recovery for those would involved verifying you via your mail email or main mobile number. How you organize it is up to you. They key, though, is to have something at the top that you can always recover, and make everything else be ultimately recoverable through that. (I'd probably personally do a 5 level tree: root; domain registrars; main email; mobile phone; everything else). USPS would be good for the root because they have offices all over the country. Most people can get to a USPS office without too much hardship. (Banks would also be a good option for root identity providers).
rasengan 6y ago
That works for a lot of things. For example, a pen is not a public utility yet it is required for more and more government services.
- sroussey 6y ago
  A pen is usually provided, for example at the DMV.
  - rasengan 6y ago
    As is internet, for example at the library...
raverbashing 6y ago
Banks are not a public utility yet it is "required" to pay non-trivial amounts to the government. Are all government offices public-transport accessible? (in a practical way - not in "two busses a day per route" kind of way)
willis936 6y ago
Is it wrong to consider a federal-taxpayer-funded open source E2E encrypted email hosting service for all US citizens? You’d need to trust the government is not putting in backdoors. Audits wouldn’t help since they’ve been spying on citizens with legislature since 2000. The alternative is... FAANGs spying on me. Pick your poison. One at least has the pretense of working for my benefit.
- upofadown 6y ago
  The E2E stuff would be at your end. Before anything fancier it would probably be good if the gov became technologically advanced enough to be able to send email to your public key and publish their own keys.
vel0city 6y ago
Previously the requirement was to have a physical mailing address. I'd say paying rent or owning a home is a much higher bar for a lot of people than operating an email address.
- metiscus 6y ago
  If you are homeless there are ways to get postal service from your local post office. Postmasters can grant free PO boxes at their discretion (1). You are also able to take advantage of general delivery (2). General delivery is available even for those who are not homeless but merely without a permanent address. 1. https://faq.usps.com/s/article/Is-there-mail-service-for-the-homeless https://faq.usps.com/s/article/Is-there-mail-service-for-the... 2. https://faq.usps.com/s/article/What-is-General-Delivery https://faq.usps.com/s/article/What-is-General-Delivery

I find this rather scary - the internet is not a public utility yet it is required for more and more government services.

by dalben 6y ago

I find this rather scary - the internet is not a public utility yet it is required for more and more government services.

aboringusername 6y ago

Emails could certainly do with some maturing, both in protocol for security/privacy (yeah, I know...) and in terms of accessibility. I am not sure society is completely ready for a fully digital world just yet; emails, phone numbers, authentication, username, passwords, 2FA codes, biometrics... Gmail should absolutely be taken away from Google's influence and treated as a public utility (free for everyone for life).

metiscus 6y ago
I support the concept of USPS offering email services for official purposes. I don't really support nationalizing Gmail.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

foxrider 6y ago

Yes, and the government would not provide you an email address, meaning you are given a choice of either using a "free" email service that would sell your data or paying a premium to a private hoster. I am not even considering self hosting because it's not something an average person could do.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

dlkinney 6y ago

While I have objections to internet-based government interaction, access is not one I worry much about. We have government-funded libraries all across the country that provide internet access. While I believe that mail should always be an option, ease of access is something that I think is over-valued when it comes to government. That's not to say that I don't appreciate convenience. Convenience and a broad range of availability are good things. But at the same time, I don't hold the belief that government owes us convenience. So with that said, and excepting arguments of convenience of availability of internet, I think it's hard to make the case that someone may be excluded just because they don't have internet. Used to be some people had to ride half a day on a horse to conduct some government business. To me, that is the baseline, and anything beyond that is a privileged blessing, NOT a necessity. I know this is a very unpopular opinion.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
All the libraries have been closed for almost a year.
- bigwavedave 6y ago
  Must be relative from area to area- my fiancee and her sister do most of their college classwork at the library because campus is closed.
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    Every public library I've seen up and down the East Coast, dozens of towns and cities, is closed. Some allow book checkouts at the door. Are you referring to campus library or public? What state?
    - bigwavedave 6y ago
      Ahhhhh my mistake, she's informed me it's the campus library. The lecture halls and general campus is shut down, the library remains open for limited hours.
travisporter 6y ago
This is an unpopular opinion for sure! - Although much improved over the last decade, library internet is still quite slow and often the desktop computers are riddled with spyware. Yeah, everyone has cell phones, but a temporarily homeless person should still be able to do coursework (obviously a very naive example but still happens) - Here's an exaggerated counterargument to your convenience argument: What if you had to travel to your state capital to vote or register for a marriage license?
WarChortle 6y ago
Used to be some people had to ride half a day on a horse to conduct some government business. To me, that is the baseline, and anything beyond that is a privileged blessing, NOT a necessity. I'm sorry what? This isn't the 1800's anymore, this way of thinking just astounds me. How can you anyone look at our modern times and say as long as your a half days horse ride away from a government office you got everything you need. You're ignoring that fact most people don't even have horses. Cars have existed for over 100 years now. You could at-least factor that into your baseline. If we never move the baseline up then we lose the will to advance. We strip the upward mobility of our poorer citizens. ease of access is something that I think is over-valued when it comes to government The harder it is for your average citizen to due something the less likely they are to do it. It discriminates against the people who need help the most and concentrates power into fewer and fewer hands. Take starting a Business for example, the harder it is the less people will do it. This is bad for our economy and society as a whole. Less small businesses means less jobs, less ways for people to lift themselves out of poverty. The more difficult Government is to interface with the more time someone has to devote to dealing with it. It means less time to focus on education or a small business, or their family, or health. It means they are more likely to be stuck where they are. Ease of Access to Government resources can be directly correlated to some peoples quality of life. Think of Food stamps or welfare to the people who need it. I think it's hard to make the case that someone may be excluded just because they don't have internet No, its pretty easy, most libraries have been closed due to Covid. Many people might not have reliable access to the internet atm. Which in the supposed best country on Earth is scary.

no_wizard 6y ago

I’ve always been of the mind that the USPS should provide an official government email of sorts. Something you sign up for in person or in some other verifiable way and that is your email address that you can use for government services and the like. This would ensure you have an email that exists for public service and is managed accordingly Bit of a pipe dream however I think the idea has real merit

toomuchtodo 6y ago
This is not a pipe dream at all. Call your Congressional rep and ask for legislation to provide this. Asking only costs your time, and you're on the right track (USPS providing this service, so they can do in-person verifications). This would then enable more government services to move to email first for correspondence, but care would need to be taken that comms fall back to phone or physical mail for exceptions (for example, FCC should fall back to SMS and/or paper mail if email bounces back).
- Simulacra 6y ago
  ...and this is what you'll get back because I used to write responses like these for a congressional office for years: Thank you toomuchtodo for writing to me about government services to move to email first for correspondence. As you know, I have always supported government accountability and efficiency, and will certainly consider this should legislation come up about it. Please continue to keep me informed about the issues that are important to you. Sincerely, your Congressional Representative.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- tzs 6y ago
  > This is not a pipe dream at all. Call your Congressional rep and ask for legislation to provide this. Asking only costs your time, and you're on the right track (USPS providing this service, so they can do in-person verifications). Do that, but go a little farther. You should be able to register with the USPS to get a universal ID (UID), and then associate both a mailing address and an email address with that UID. USPS would then provide both an email address and virtual mailing address that incorporate the UID. Email sent to that email address would forward to the real email address associated with the UID, and physical mail sent to the virtual mailing address would be delivered to the associated physical mailing address. I'd like to see them also offer an ID verification service, that provides a way for you to verify to a third party that you control a particular UID. This could provide a robust account recovery mechanism for other services. Right now, if an account at some service gets hijacked, or you simply forget or lose your credentials, recovery usually depends on SMS or on email. The problem with those is that they too can be hijacked, and their recovery also depends on SMS or email. You end up with a tangled mess of dependencies. A way to fix this is to organize account recovery as a tree. At the root you have some service where recovery requires that you physically show up at their office and present proof of identity, such as a passport. Then directly under the root you might have your main email account or your main mobile phone account. Account recovery for those would involve verifying your identity with the root. Below those, you might have your social media accounts, your utility accounts, and so on. Recovery for those would involved verifying you via your mail email or main mobile number. How you organize it is up to you. They key, though, is to have something at the top that you can always recover, and make everything else be ultimately recoverable through that. (I'd probably personally do a 5 level tree: root; domain registrars; main email; mobile phone; everything else). USPS would be good for the root because they have offices all over the country. Most people can get to a USPS office without too much hardship. (Banks would also be a good option for root identity providers).

rasengan 6y ago

That works for a lot of things. For example, a pen is not a public utility yet it is required for more and more government services.

sroussey 6y ago
A pen is usually provided, for example at the DMV.
- rasengan 6y ago
  As is internet, for example at the library...

raverbashing 6y ago

Banks are not a public utility yet it is "required" to pay non-trivial amounts to the government. Are all government offices public-transport accessible? (in a practical way - not in "two busses a day per route" kind of way)

willis936 6y ago

Is it wrong to consider a federal-taxpayer-funded open source E2E encrypted email hosting service for all US citizens? You’d need to trust the government is not putting in backdoors. Audits wouldn’t help since they’ve been spying on citizens with legislature since 2000. The alternative is... FAANGs spying on me. Pick your poison. One at least has the pretense of working for my benefit.

upofadown 6y ago
The E2E stuff would be at your end. Before anything fancier it would probably be good if the gov became technologically advanced enough to be able to send email to your public key and publish their own keys.

vel0city 6y ago

Previously the requirement was to have a physical mailing address. I'd say paying rent or owning a home is a much higher bar for a lot of people than operating an email address.

metiscus 6y ago
If you are homeless there are ways to get postal service from your local post office. Postmasters can grant free PO boxes at their discretion (1). You are also able to take advantage of general delivery (2). General delivery is available even for those who are not homeless but merely without a permanent address. 1. https://faq.usps.com/s/article/Is-there-mail-service-for-the-homeless https://faq.usps.com/s/article/Is-there-mail-service-for-the... 2. https://faq.usps.com/s/article/What-is-General-Delivery https://faq.usps.com/s/article/What-is-General-Delivery