3 ms·

I disagree with your assessment in the strongest terms as I have personally experienced them being separate as achieving the opposite most of my 15 year career.

by donatj 6y ago

I disagree with your assessment in the strongest terms as I have personally experienced them being separate as achieving the opposite most of my 15 year career. Places I had worked including my current employer, vacation days need to be scheduled at least a week+ in advance. As a person who gets sick a lot I almost always end up having to take unpaid days off when I’m sick because I blew though my 3-5 sick days. Places with PTO I can take my entire pool off as sick time. Never took an unpaid day at a PTO business. Right now. I have 400+ hours of banked vacation time, but I have used all of my sick days for the year. If I get sick I have to take it unpaid or work. It doesn’t make any sense. Honestly I think they should outlaw having them separate.

MereInterest 6y ago
It sounds like the problem is in having such a small pool of sick days, not in the concept of separation. By no fault of your own, by getting sick more often, you are forced to give up income (current situation) or to give up your vacation (merged PTO). Neither of those is an acceptable situation, and the solution is to have more reasonable sick leave policies.
- donatj 6y ago
  PTO is the more reasonable policy. I have weeks of sick days, it’s great.
  - MereInterest 6y ago
    Even better solution: As much sick leave as you need while sick, without taking away your vacation time as a result.
  - Blahah 6y ago
    It isn't a reasonable policy at all. If you are sick for weeks you have no vacation time. That's bad for everyone involved.
    - donatj 6y ago
      I'm pretty sure the people ITT are going to disagree with me, but vacation is a luxury, sick days are a necessity. If I missed weeks of work I wouldn't also take a vacation that year regardless.
      - MereInterest 6y ago
        Interesting axiomatic basis for your argument, and thank you for explaining where we are seeing differences. You are correct that I would disagree with you on that, and place both as necessities. Sick days are necessary for short-term physical and mental health. Vacation days are necessary for long-term mental health. If you missed weeks of work from an illness, those weeks aren't time where you could see family, see the world, relax, and be human. They don't satisfy the same long-term needs as fully-disconnected vacation time satisfies.
      - caskstrength 6y ago
        >If I missed weeks of work I wouldn't also take a vacation that year regardless. Why wouldn't you?
      - cr1895 6y ago
        >vacation is a luxury, sick days are a necessity. In many places (Europe, generally?), vacation days are earned. At least in the Netherlands if you were absent for weeks due to illness (for which there is no fixed pool of days), and decided not to take any vacation days, you'd either have some of your vacation days rolled over to the next year or they'd be paid out to you with salary and taxed. It's not a luxury in the slightest. You'd have earned them just as you earned your wages.
        ciceryadam 6y ago
        How's it in Netherlands in case of long term sickness? In Czech Republic we have the time off accrued based on worked hours. If you are out sick 2 weeks, you don't earn holiday time for these days. So instead of they yearly 25 days off you'll only have 24. But parental leave is considered as work, so if you come back after your parental leave, you have your full amount.
germinalphrase 6y ago
Or require more than 3-5 sick days. Hardly seems adequate.
- donatj 6y ago
  Like give me three weeks of sick days. And no vacation. And you can call it PTO if you want, sounds great.
  - germinalphrase 6y ago
    I don’t disagree. In general, I believe employees should have more control over their hours worked.
account42 6y ago
There should not be a hard limit on sick days - that's how it works in many countries. If you are sick for too long it might not be your employer that pays, but you should never be cheated out of your vacation for it. Even if you get sick during your vacation, you get those vacation days back here.
Germanika 6y ago
See, this just tells me that 3-5 sick days is completely inadequate. I've been fortunate to generally have virtually unlimited sick days, and I very much prefer that to having to use up my limited vacation days. It does point out that they'd need to enforce a reasonable minimum number of sick days if they're forcing them to be separate from PTO.
detaro 6y ago
From a perspective of many other places of the world, the idea that you can "use up" your sick days if you are actually sick just doesn't make any sense. So the unspoken assumption is "sick days shouldn't cut into your vacation, and obviously sick days are effectively unlimited"

by donatj 6y ago

MereInterest 6y ago

It sounds like the problem is in having such a small pool of sick days, not in the concept of separation. By no fault of your own, by getting sick more often, you are forced to give up income (current situation) or to give up your vacation (merged PTO). Neither of those is an acceptable situation, and the solution is to have more reasonable sick leave policies.

donatj 6y ago
PTO is the more reasonable policy. I have weeks of sick days, it’s great.
- MereInterest 6y ago
  Even better solution: As much sick leave as you need while sick, without taking away your vacation time as a result.
- Blahah 6y ago
  It isn't a reasonable policy at all. If you are sick for weeks you have no vacation time. That's bad for everyone involved.
  - donatj 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure the people ITT are going to disagree with me, but vacation is a luxury, sick days are a necessity. If I missed weeks of work I wouldn't also take a vacation that year regardless.
    - MereInterest 6y ago
      Interesting axiomatic basis for your argument, and thank you for explaining where we are seeing differences. You are correct that I would disagree with you on that, and place both as necessities. Sick days are necessary for short-term physical and mental health. Vacation days are necessary for long-term mental health. If you missed weeks of work from an illness, those weeks aren't time where you could see family, see the world, relax, and be human. They don't satisfy the same long-term needs as fully-disconnected vacation time satisfies.
    - caskstrength 6y ago
      >If I missed weeks of work I wouldn't also take a vacation that year regardless. Why wouldn't you?
    - cr1895 6y ago
      >vacation is a luxury, sick days are a necessity. In many places (Europe, generally?), vacation days are earned. At least in the Netherlands if you were absent for weeks due to illness (for which there is no fixed pool of days), and decided not to take any vacation days, you'd either have some of your vacation days rolled over to the next year or they'd be paid out to you with salary and taxed. It's not a luxury in the slightest. You'd have earned them just as you earned your wages.
      - ciceryadam 6y ago
        How's it in Netherlands in case of long term sickness? In Czech Republic we have the time off accrued based on worked hours. If you are out sick 2 weeks, you don't earn holiday time for these days. So instead of they yearly 25 days off you'll only have 24. But parental leave is considered as work, so if you come back after your parental leave, you have your full amount.

germinalphrase 6y ago

Or require more than 3-5 sick days. Hardly seems adequate.

donatj 6y ago
Like give me three weeks of sick days. And no vacation. And you can call it PTO if you want, sounds great.
- germinalphrase 6y ago
  I don’t disagree. In general, I believe employees should have more control over their hours worked.

account42 6y ago

There should not be a hard limit on sick days - that's how it works in many countries. If you are sick for too long it might not be your employer that pays, but you should never be cheated out of your vacation for it. Even if you get sick during your vacation, you get those vacation days back here.

Germanika 6y ago

See, this just tells me that 3-5 sick days is completely inadequate. I've been fortunate to generally have virtually unlimited sick days, and I very much prefer that to having to use up my limited vacation days. It does point out that they'd need to enforce a reasonable minimum number of sick days if they're forcing them to be separate from PTO.

detaro 6y ago

From a perspective of many other places of the world, the idea that you can "use up" your sick days if you are actually sick just doesn't make any sense. So the unspoken assumption is "sick days shouldn't cut into your vacation, and obviously sick days are effectively unlimited"