4 ms·

What about the employees who are happy to stay ready 'on-call', in a position where they are payed more then they've ever made? Could the employee make an agre

What about the employees who are happy to stay ready 'on-call', in a position where they are payed more then they've ever made? Could the employee make an agreement with his/her employer, or would such an agreement be deemed 'unlawful' under the new law?

bob1029 6y ago
This is the concern I have with these policies. I completely understand (and mostly agree with) the general case they are going for in which we should not be abusing employees who are susceptible to abuse. There are classes of individuals who are far more easy to manipulate into hellish work circumstances than others. Those on work visas are particularly on edge. But, these policies also put tricky restrictions around those who love the challenge of ridiculous overtime sprints (These people do actually exist). Protecting the general case can temper the edge cases. In this situation, I would argue the "edge cases" are not adverse. I think you want those types desperately, because that's where all the frontier advancement usually occurs. I.e. the linux kernel didn't get written over a bunch of carefully-metered 40 hour work weeks with mandatory EU breaks throughout. Works of passion and innovation need to occur organically, and in all cases this involves periods of furious productivity interspersed with total dead zones. I actually caught some flak from a developer because I kept insisting that they have worked plenty this week so far and should consider taking a break. I eventually got a sharp rebuke like - "Why can't I work on this if I really want to?". I was left with no rational response beyond stating arbitrary metrics. This is a reaction that I could see myself having as well if the roles were reversed. Perhaps we should arrive at a system where the EU restrictions are default, and employers can file for exemptions using some reasonable process in which employees participate via explicit opt-in, and the opt-in status in no way predicates acceptance of the applicant by the employer.
- Ekaros 6y ago
  I think this really isn't for cases where workers are happy to work longer days. But for situations where groups like managers are expected to work outside regular working hours constantly. And this also comes to having clear laws that companies can't retaliate(fire) someone if they don't work outside working hours. So if you are a developer and want to do 60 hour week writing code. You could do that under flexible hours. It is just that the employer can't force you to do that or expect you to regularly work outside regular hours. On other hand being "on-call" is something different. It can be compensated and hours worked will be considered overtime with multiplier.
izacus 6y ago
Pretty much all of legal frameworks in EU places have specific exceptions for "On-Call" type work and they usually demand extra compensation and clear agreement between the employee and employer. I think it's kinda self-evident that this would be the case?
- aminozuur 6y ago
  >>"I think it's kinda self-evident that this would be the case?" I've owned a small company in the Netherlands that employed people. At times, we had to spent lots of money on accountants and lawyers, just to find out certain rules, restrictions, strange regulations. Not even implementing, this was just the cost we payed in energy, attention and money to understand it.
  - CommanderData 6y ago
    Good. Regulations exist for reasons. What is your point?
    - aminozuur 6y ago
      That such rules often are not "self-evident".
      - izacus 6y ago
        I'm not sure how that would prove anything or refute anything - you spent a lot of time looking at rules. Ok?
    - fastball 6y ago
      Is the reason "make business less efficient"?
Mauricebranagh 6y ago
I know that in one bit UK company being on call was seen as a perk as you got paid a retainer and TOIL at OT rates Some Mainframe DBA's where on 4in4 and where called 2 3 times year. I also heard of some one who worked two shifts for an extended period at PRESTEL
- Hamuko 6y ago
  I've heard that if you get paid collective agreement rates for on-call IT work in Finland, you're looking at quite a nice bonus to your paycheck. There's however a clause in the collective agreement that allows for employers and employees to agree to different rates, so not all on-call work gets it.
Nokinside 6y ago
Absolutely. The difference is that now employees get paid extra for being on-call. EU seeks to put end to unpaid "on-call" work culture that just assumes everyone is always on-call without extra compensation.

bob1029 6y ago

This is the concern I have with these policies. I completely understand (and mostly agree with) the general case they are going for in which we should not be abusing employees who are susceptible to abuse. There are classes of individuals who are far more easy to manipulate into hellish work circumstances than others. Those on work visas are particularly on edge. But, these policies also put tricky restrictions around those who love the challenge of ridiculous overtime sprints (These people do actually exist). Protecting the general case can temper the edge cases. In this situation, I would argue the "edge cases" are not adverse. I think you want those types desperately, because that's where all the frontier advancement usually occurs. I.e. the linux kernel didn't get written over a bunch of carefully-metered 40 hour work weeks with mandatory EU breaks throughout. Works of passion and innovation need to occur organically, and in all cases this involves periods of furious productivity interspersed with total dead zones. I actually caught some flak from a developer because I kept insisting that they have worked plenty this week so far and should consider taking a break. I eventually got a sharp rebuke like - "Why can't I work on this if I really want to?". I was left with no rational response beyond stating arbitrary metrics. This is a reaction that I could see myself having as well if the roles were reversed. Perhaps we should arrive at a system where the EU restrictions are default, and employers can file for exemptions using some reasonable process in which employees participate via explicit opt-in, and the opt-in status in no way predicates acceptance of the applicant by the employer.

Ekaros 6y ago
I think this really isn't for cases where workers are happy to work longer days. But for situations where groups like managers are expected to work outside regular working hours constantly. And this also comes to having clear laws that companies can't retaliate(fire) someone if they don't work outside working hours. So if you are a developer and want to do 60 hour week writing code. You could do that under flexible hours. It is just that the employer can't force you to do that or expect you to regularly work outside regular hours. On other hand being "on-call" is something different. It can be compensated and hours worked will be considered overtime with multiplier.

izacus 6y ago

Pretty much all of legal frameworks in EU places have specific exceptions for "On-Call" type work and they usually demand extra compensation and clear agreement between the employee and employer. I think it's kinda self-evident that this would be the case?

aminozuur 6y ago
>>"I think it's kinda self-evident that this would be the case?" I've owned a small company in the Netherlands that employed people. At times, we had to spent lots of money on accountants and lawyers, just to find out certain rules, restrictions, strange regulations. Not even implementing, this was just the cost we payed in energy, attention and money to understand it.
- CommanderData 6y ago
  Good. Regulations exist for reasons. What is your point?
  - aminozuur 6y ago
    That such rules often are not "self-evident".
    - izacus 6y ago
      I'm not sure how that would prove anything or refute anything - you spent a lot of time looking at rules. Ok?
  - fastball 6y ago
    Is the reason "make business less efficient"?

Mauricebranagh 6y ago

I know that in one bit UK company being on call was seen as a perk as you got paid a retainer and TOIL at OT rates Some Mainframe DBA's where on 4in4 and where called 2 3 times year. I also heard of some one who worked two shifts for an extended period at PRESTEL

Hamuko 6y ago
I've heard that if you get paid collective agreement rates for on-call IT work in Finland, you're looking at quite a nice bonus to your paycheck. There's however a clause in the collective agreement that allows for employers and employees to agree to different rates, so not all on-call work gets it.

Nokinside 6y ago

Absolutely. The difference is that now employees get paid extra for being on-call. EU seeks to put end to unpaid "on-call" work culture that just assumes everyone is always on-call without extra compensation.