5 ms·

How come that 5G is part of a feature set of a CPU? Is 5G implementable in software?

by Aardwolf 6y ago

scotth 6y ago
Read the article.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
baybal2 6y ago
Almost all modern modems do a ton of work in software on specialised DSPs. Trying to do a wholly SDR free 5G modem would be a monumental feat, and first attempts at implementations would probably be gigantic.
- monocasa 6y ago
  More importantly, it would almost certainly be a broken implementation, without the ability to be updated. 5G is extremely complex, even when processing in software.
Nokinside 6y ago
Not in real time. If you want to do real time 5G calls (as you do when you prototype, test and develop) using software defined radio you buy one of those USRP boxes. They have CPU's DSPs that run software and then programmable FPGA's talking to ADCs and DACs.
- ne9xt 6y ago
  Where can I find more information about the details of the interface of the modem firmware (ASIC) and the real time software?
  - xxpor 6y ago
    Call up Qualcomm and offer millions of dollars?
  - stagger87 6y ago
    Here is an interesting paper on the architecture of an LTE modem. Seems like a reasonable approach, although I don't know how prevalent this approach is. RFIC, some dedicated hardware for the PHY DSP stuff and an ARM chip for the high level logic, all connected via AXI bus. https://community.arm.com/cfs-file/__key/telligent-evolution-components-attachments/01-1996-00-00-00-00-46-60/ARM_2D00_CEVA-LTE_2D00_Advanced-White-Paper-Final.pdf https://community.arm.com/cfs-file/__key/telligent-evolution...
- red0point 6y ago
  There‘s also Amarisoft, which does it in „real time“ in software, but not open source. I believe srsLTE, used to turn SDRs into eNodeB/UEs, adds support for 5G soon (tm).
LeifCarrotson 6y ago
It's not a feature set of a CPU, this is an SOC, or System On Chip. It's not like an Intel 4004 that just does the processing and relies on external chips for peripherals, they bake in all the typical stuff that the system it's designed for (a cell phone) is expected to use. It contains 8 ARM cores (one of which is "the CPU"), a GPU, an AI DSP, a memory controller, 3 image signal processors for connection to cameras, video encoder/decoders, Bluetooth, Wifi, NFC, GPS/GNSS, dual SIM support, probably some general-purpose inputs and outputs, plus, yes, a 5G modem. To sum up the explanations given for why it's part of the SOC and not an external device on a bus: > Last year’s ... external 5G modem such as the X55 helped the 5G transition as it was available to vendors earlier than the Snapdragon 865 SoC itself, allowing them to design their RF systems before having access to the newest SoC. > The platform’s reabsorption of the modem into the SoC die should signify better power efficiency, lower platform cost as well as lower PCB complexity for smartphone vendors.
- chrisjc 6y ago
  How does this compare to the latest A14 (i think that's the latest) when it comes to "baked in" radio set? Is it still external on apple device and it's just a matter of time until they bake in what they acquired from Intel? Or are they already baking it in and just paying royalties to Qualcomm?
  - TorKlingberg 6y ago
    Apple use a separate modem chip. iPhone12 has a Qualcomm SDR865 baseband and SDX55M radio. There have been rumours about Apple making their own modem, and presumably integrate it in an A-series SoC, but nothing yet. A 5G modem is pretty complicated tech. I used to work on Nvidia's Icera, but that's gone now. A lot of chip makers have given up, and Qualcomm is the undisputed leader. MediaTek dominates in low-mid end Androids. I think Huawei & Samsung both have something.
  - LeifCarrotson 6y ago
    The A14 uses an external Qualcomm radio, much like Android phones based on the previous Qualcomm Snapdragon 865. Take a look at the yellow and green boxed SDR865 and SDX55M in this image of the iPhone 12 with A14 motherboard from the iFixit teardown: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone+12+and+12+Pro+Teardown/137669#s274767 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone+12+and+12+Pro+Teardow... The same are in yellow and red on the Samsung Galaxy S20 with Snapdragon 865 teardown: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Samsung+Galaxy+S20+Ultra+Teardown/131607#s259200 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Samsung+Galaxy+S20+Ultra+Tea... The SDR865 and SDX55M are the external 5G parts that would disappear with the 888. Compare the PCB area used for those (they're both almost as large as the whole SOC; I'm sure much of that is driven not by silicon area or thermal requirements but by a lot of power and pins for high-speed host communication) to this teardown of the Galaxy S10, which has the Snapdragon 855 with an integrated 4G modem: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Samsung+Galaxy+S10+and+S10e+Teardown/120331#s232018 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Samsung+Galaxy+S10+and+S10e+... Apple has said they want to integrate the 5G modem by 2022.

How come that 5G is part of a feature set of a CPU? Is 5G implementable in software?

scotth 6y ago

Read the article.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

baybal2 6y ago

Almost all modern modems do a ton of work in software on specialised DSPs. Trying to do a wholly SDR free 5G modem would be a monumental feat, and first attempts at implementations would probably be gigantic.

monocasa 6y ago
More importantly, it would almost certainly be a broken implementation, without the ability to be updated. 5G is extremely complex, even when processing in software.

Nokinside 6y ago

Not in real time. If you want to do real time 5G calls (as you do when you prototype, test and develop) using software defined radio you buy one of those USRP boxes. They have CPU's DSPs that run software and then programmable FPGA's talking to ADCs and DACs.

ne9xt 6y ago
Where can I find more information about the details of the interface of the modem firmware (ASIC) and the real time software?
- xxpor 6y ago
  Call up Qualcomm and offer millions of dollars?
- stagger87 6y ago
  Here is an interesting paper on the architecture of an LTE modem. Seems like a reasonable approach, although I don't know how prevalent this approach is. RFIC, some dedicated hardware for the PHY DSP stuff and an ARM chip for the high level logic, all connected via AXI bus. https://community.arm.com/cfs-file/__key/telligent-evolution-components-attachments/01-1996-00-00-00-00-46-60/ARM_2D00_CEVA-LTE_2D00_Advanced-White-Paper-Final.pdf https://community.arm.com/cfs-file/__key/telligent-evolution...
red0point 6y ago
There‘s also Amarisoft, which does it in „real time“ in software, but not open source. I believe srsLTE, used to turn SDRs into eNodeB/UEs, adds support for 5G soon (tm).

LeifCarrotson 6y ago

It's not a feature set of a CPU, this is an SOC, or System On Chip. It's not like an Intel 4004 that just does the processing and relies on external chips for peripherals, they bake in all the typical stuff that the system it's designed for (a cell phone) is expected to use. It contains 8 ARM cores (one of which is "the CPU"), a GPU, an AI DSP, a memory controller, 3 image signal processors for connection to cameras, video encoder/decoders, Bluetooth, Wifi, NFC, GPS/GNSS, dual SIM support, probably some general-purpose inputs and outputs, plus, yes, a 5G modem. To sum up the explanations given for why it's part of the SOC and not an external device on a bus: > Last year’s ... external 5G modem such as the X55 helped the 5G transition as it was available to vendors earlier than the Snapdragon 865 SoC itself, allowing them to design their RF systems before having access to the newest SoC. > The platform’s reabsorption of the modem into the SoC die should signify better power efficiency, lower platform cost as well as lower PCB complexity for smartphone vendors.

chrisjc 6y ago
How does this compare to the latest A14 (i think that's the latest) when it comes to "baked in" radio set? Is it still external on apple device and it's just a matter of time until they bake in what they acquired from Intel? Or are they already baking it in and just paying royalties to Qualcomm?
- TorKlingberg 6y ago
  Apple use a separate modem chip. iPhone12 has a Qualcomm SDR865 baseband and SDX55M radio. There have been rumours about Apple making their own modem, and presumably integrate it in an A-series SoC, but nothing yet. A 5G modem is pretty complicated tech. I used to work on Nvidia's Icera, but that's gone now. A lot of chip makers have given up, and Qualcomm is the undisputed leader. MediaTek dominates in low-mid end Androids. I think Huawei & Samsung both have something.
- LeifCarrotson 6y ago
  The A14 uses an external Qualcomm radio, much like Android phones based on the previous Qualcomm Snapdragon 865. Take a look at the yellow and green boxed SDR865 and SDX55M in this image of the iPhone 12 with A14 motherboard from the iFixit teardown: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone+12+and+12+Pro+Teardown/137669#s274767 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone+12+and+12+Pro+Teardow... The same are in yellow and red on the Samsung Galaxy S20 with Snapdragon 865 teardown: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Samsung+Galaxy+S20+Ultra+Teardown/131607#s259200 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Samsung+Galaxy+S20+Ultra+Tea... The SDR865 and SDX55M are the external 5G parts that would disappear with the 888. Compare the PCB area used for those (they're both almost as large as the whole SOC; I'm sure much of that is driven not by silicon area or thermal requirements but by a lot of power and pins for high-speed host communication) to this teardown of the Galaxy S10, which has the Snapdragon 855 with an integrated 4G modem: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Samsung+Galaxy+S10+and+S10e+Teardown/120331#s232018 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Samsung+Galaxy+S10+and+S10e+... Apple has said they want to integrate the 5G modem by 2022.