4 ms·

I'm not an expert but: - 1. Copyright (though many fonts are free, true) - 2. Everyone uses a different font (just like everyone uses a slightly different ver

I'm not an expert but: - 1. Copyright (though many fonts are free, true) - 2. Everyone uses a different font (just like everyone uses a slightly different version jquery) so cache hit would be pretty small IMO. Do you really want a browser to be gigabytes large? Especially on mobile it's not viable Maybe if browsers standardized on shipping, say, 20 carefully chosen fonts (not necessarily the most popular ones, just a good variety of different types of fonts), the smaller websites would follow and use them; but I think any major brand likes to distinguish themselves and have a custom unique font.

dubcanada 6y ago
I mean I’ve said it before but shipping like 20 (montserrat, raleway, open sans, etc) would cover most websites who use Google Fonts.
- jakub_g 6y ago
  You might be right, but the next question is fashion. Will the same fonts be used still in 5 years, or (more likely) the new hotness will arrive? Should the browsers update the list each year? Then some fonts that were available will suddenly be not? Not so great. Web standards and browser features are generally built for the long term and backward compatibility. I mean, it's not impossible to find a solution, but it's definitely not "let's download some fonts and bundle with the browser, done" kind of problem.
  - netheril96 6y ago
    At least it is not a problem for Google, since it controls both the most popular browse and most popular web font distribution channels.
  - thrower123 6y ago
    When you control 70% of the desktop market share, and you are releasing an evergreen browser that updates weekly, if not more frequently, any argument about not being able to stay on top of changes in the environment become rather silly.
  - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
    We keep root ssl certificates up to date, surely we can handle a few fonts.
  - flomo 6y ago
    Microsoft's old "core fonts for the web" are still widely in use. (including here on HN.)
    - hanspeter 6y ago
      Aside from Arial, which core fonts are still used widely?
      - flomo 6y ago
        Right-click and inspect element.
- jfk13 6y ago
  Do we really want to invite a couple of browser vendors to set the course of typographic design for the next few decades?
zinekeller 6y ago
> Maybe if browsers standardized on shipping, say, 20 carefully chosen fonts (not necessarily the most popular ones, just a good variety of different types of fonts), the smaller websites would follow and use them; but I think any major brand likes to distinguish themselves and have a custom unique font. It may be not really carefully chosen, but didn't Microsoft have done this already? (Core fonts for the Web, https://web.archive.org/web/20020124085641/http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fontpack/default.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20020124085641/http://www.micros...). The reason they have discontinued this programme is that it actually costs them some money (as the fonts are not owned by Microsoft.) Also, how would you cater to non-LGC (Latin, Greek, Cyrillic) users?
- jakub_g 6y ago
  Yep Asian fonts in particular are _huge_. It's a complex topic.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
marcthe12 6y ago
I believe already there but maybe a set of categories of fonts like UI, sans, monospace, handwriting could be alias usual for all websites and apps
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
> "Do you really want a browser to be gigabytes large? Especially on mobile it's not viable" Absolutely, i would rather give the browser 50 GB even on my phone over paying my mobile operator for downloading the same data over and over again. And it wouldn't take anywhere near that much, I am sure 80% of most used fonts are only a couple dozen, that wouldn't tale gigabytes
- cj 6y ago
  It also doesn't have to be a binary proposition. For example, Google Maps by default doesn't load maps of the entire world when you install it. However, it does let you opt-in to pre-downloading specific areas that you frequently travel. Browsers could do the same by simply adding an opt-in to download / cache common assets like fonts, jquery, etc.
  - rovr138 6y ago
    From a privacy point of view, Not embedding all of them would allow tracking. Caching all web fonts would allow tracking. The solution is embedding all the popular ones so everyone has them and it can't be used as a signal.
- sergeykish 6y ago
  It would be interesting to gather a list. uBlock Origin can disable Web Fonts https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Per-site-switches#no-remote-fonts https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Per-site-switches#no-... so it should be possible to log. And given a list it is not hard to download.

dubcanada 6y ago

I mean I’ve said it before but shipping like 20 (montserrat, raleway, open sans, etc) would cover most websites who use Google Fonts.

jakub_g 6y ago
You might be right, but the next question is fashion. Will the same fonts be used still in 5 years, or (more likely) the new hotness will arrive? Should the browsers update the list each year? Then some fonts that were available will suddenly be not? Not so great. Web standards and browser features are generally built for the long term and backward compatibility. I mean, it's not impossible to find a solution, but it's definitely not "let's download some fonts and bundle with the browser, done" kind of problem.
- netheril96 6y ago
  At least it is not a problem for Google, since it controls both the most popular browse and most popular web font distribution channels.
- thrower123 6y ago
  When you control 70% of the desktop market share, and you are releasing an evergreen browser that updates weekly, if not more frequently, any argument about not being able to stay on top of changes in the environment become rather silly.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  We keep root ssl certificates up to date, surely we can handle a few fonts.
- flomo 6y ago
  Microsoft's old "core fonts for the web" are still widely in use. (including here on HN.)
  - hanspeter 6y ago
    Aside from Arial, which core fonts are still used widely?
    - flomo 6y ago
      Right-click and inspect element.
jfk13 6y ago
Do we really want to invite a couple of browser vendors to set the course of typographic design for the next few decades?

zinekeller 6y ago

> Maybe if browsers standardized on shipping, say, 20 carefully chosen fonts (not necessarily the most popular ones, just a good variety of different types of fonts), the smaller websites would follow and use them; but I think any major brand likes to distinguish themselves and have a custom unique font. It may be not really carefully chosen, but didn't Microsoft have done this already? (Core fonts for the Web, https://web.archive.org/web/20020124085641/http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fontpack/default.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20020124085641/http://www.micros...). The reason they have discontinued this programme is that it actually costs them some money (as the fonts are not owned by Microsoft.) Also, how would you cater to non-LGC (Latin, Greek, Cyrillic) users?

jakub_g 6y ago
Yep Asian fonts in particular are _huge_. It's a complex topic.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

marcthe12 6y ago

I believe already there but maybe a set of categories of fonts like UI, sans, monospace, handwriting could be alias usual for all websites and apps

ClumsyPilot 6y ago

> "Do you really want a browser to be gigabytes large? Especially on mobile it's not viable" Absolutely, i would rather give the browser 50 GB even on my phone over paying my mobile operator for downloading the same data over and over again. And it wouldn't take anywhere near that much, I am sure 80% of most used fonts are only a couple dozen, that wouldn't tale gigabytes

cj 6y ago
It also doesn't have to be a binary proposition. For example, Google Maps by default doesn't load maps of the entire world when you install it. However, it does let you opt-in to pre-downloading specific areas that you frequently travel. Browsers could do the same by simply adding an opt-in to download / cache common assets like fonts, jquery, etc.
- rovr138 6y ago
  From a privacy point of view, Not embedding all of them would allow tracking. Caching all web fonts would allow tracking. The solution is embedding all the popular ones so everyone has them and it can't be used as a signal.
sergeykish 6y ago
It would be interesting to gather a list. uBlock Origin can disable Web Fonts https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Per-site-switches#no-remote-fonts https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Per-site-switches#no-... so it should be possible to log. And given a list it is not hard to download.