4 ms·

It's infuriating to see so much web tech being discarded created during the 90s and 00s in good faith, just because the web was subverted into an app delivery p

It's infuriating to see so much web tech being discarded created during the 90s and 00s in good faith, just because the web was subverted into an app delivery platform (in this case, shared caches were obsoleted by timing attacks) and the arms race for ever more crap to counter the negative effects, insufficiently. The web may now be a platform to lock-in and enslave users; just isn't anymore a recommendable place for sharing documents, reach out, and inspiration. We didn't need that; we had plenty of app platforms already. Edit: you can still serve Google-commissioned fonts directly from your domain of course, and CDNs were always a bit fishy

dcgudeman 6y ago
“Enslave users”, really?
- bbarnett 6y ago
  Radicalization is the style of the time! Their side is heinous, evil, and kills babies. Our side is just, wondrous, and angel like. Thus, they enslave, we strive to break free, and bask in the pure bliss our utter and complete correctness enables.
  - bbarnett 6y ago
    (12 years pass....) Musk announces the newest brain-link, of which enplantment is a requirement to use modern phones. User complaints of random, altered perceptions of reality are brushed aside, and mostly accepted. After a quick altered perception of reality. :P Perhaps enslaved is on the table, 20 years out?
  - nerdponx 6y ago
    Both sides, amirite?
    - bbarnett 6y ago
      I guess this is political-ish now, but yes. I'm a Canuck, and frankly most differences between US political parties is barely tangible. For many parts of the world, with real political differences, the US left and right appear completely identical. Yet sadly, each side seems to see only the differences.
      - dleslie 6y ago
        As a fellow Canadian, I think that was more true during the Bush/Gore debates than it has been any time since; becoming less true with time. While the Democrats are somewhere right of our Liberals, and hover somewhere near our Tories, the Republicans are ... Something else entirely. We don't have any party nearly as powerful and obstructive. Try to imagine if the Bloc held control of the Senate, and you may come to understand what it's like for the Democrats when having to deal with the Republicans. The legislation they create and pass just piles up at the senate door, while the obstructionists use ever trick they can muster to undermine their opponents.
        bbarnett 6y ago
        Hmm. My post to which you are replying, directly discusses political differences, stances on specific topics, that sort of thing. Viewed externally, much of the world cannot see a difference here. Put another way, the differences between US political parties are exceptionally tiny, when measured against the sameness of those parties. Yet what you're describing instead, is how radicalized / unable to communicate with each other, a party may be. Or those with opposing political viewpoints. Yet I see the same degree of "They're wrong, WRONG!" coming from both main political parties in the US. From people on both sides. I agree that this is "worse than it was".
        dleslie 6y ago
        Well that's the rub: Republicans aren't particularly fickle about policy: they have been known to obstruct their own bills in order to undermine the Democrats. I can't recall when last a Canadian party did such a thing. Because of that I can't really find much merit in comparing the parties on policy. Public policy doesn't appear to be the primary motivator of the GOP. The Democrats may disagree with the GOP on policy and fight to alter legislation, but the GOP disagrees with allowing the Democrats to shape policy at all.
    - viridian 6y ago
      I flagged your post, so I owe you an explanation: This comment comes across as dismissive ("amirite") and is unlikely to generate good discussion. Inf act, it's the exact kind of comment you would make if you wanted to flame bait.
- tannhaeuser 6y ago
  Yes enslave. It might come sooner as you think with developers so busy to take their trivial apps and dev workflows into "the cloud", where they soon find they're being monitored and otherwise taken advantage off by the likes of Atlassian and github, to at best result in their replacement by a much cheaper workforce or robots. As compared to traditional F/OSS or commercial software seeking to empower users, use workflows based on open formats and principles of site autonomy. For end users addicted to their smartphones, it's game over already.
  - mrtranscendence 6y ago
    How is this going to work, exactly? I take my app to the cloud, Github monitors me, and then ... forces my employer to outsource me to a robot somehow?
- pdimitar 6y ago
  "Lacking any meaningful choice" on more locked-down platforms like the smartphone OS-es is a better choice of words. But when you get down to it and if you are into a bit more dramatic language, "enslaved" (with proper context attached) isn't that far off, no?
arcturus17 6y ago
How has the web been subverted? By whom? And which notable, useful old tecnologies have been discarded? The capabilities of the web have only been expanded. You can still build websites in Django and Rails and myriad other "old-school" technologies. What are you missing? Perl and CGI? To the point of this article, you can perfectly build a website with self-hosted fonts, or with default system fonts. Is this what "lock-in" and discarding good ole' tech looks to you? It's tiring to see this bitterly pessimistic, conspiracy-laden rhetoric on HN. With the added bonus that as of late it's being radicalized ("subverted", "enslaved"), as some sibling commenters are pointing out. How ironic that the people accusing everyone else of being "enslaved" are themselves carried away by the trends of the time. But more importantly, this rhetoric is profoundly demeaning. To web developers and technologists, because it assumes that they are largely incompetent or malicious, and that the commenter and his clique of retro-futurists know much better and are morally more pure than all tech professionals nowadays. To regular people at large, because it paints them as drones and slaves to greater powers, with no agency whatsoever, instead of analyzing why they may prefer Facebook over old-school forums, and empathizing with them and their problems. But above all, it's demeaning to the authors of such comments themselves, because it paints them as dejected, bitter fanatics who have lost sight of the forest for the trees. The web is still full of opportunity - artistic, technical, commercial and otherwise. If you don't think so, maybe it's time you embrace a low-tech lifestyle and devote yourself to gardening? Everyone will be better off for it.
- metalforever 6y ago
  This comment touches on some points which don't make sense from an engineering perspective. Different tools for different use cases. You can't throw the baby out with the bathwater and choose SPAs for every single application. They still perform poorly with SEO and people with disabilities that need a screen reader. It's not black and white (good or bad). Also, using Django and Rails are hardly the same as using Perl and CGI.
  - arcturus17 6y ago
    What doesn’t make sense from an engineering perspective? I did not say you should build everything as an SPA. I said you still can build in SSR - not once did I say what you should or shouldn’t do. But I agree - some sites are better off as SSR, static sites or what have you. What in my comment made you think that I think otherwise? I also do not think that Django or Rails are remotely similar to CGI sites - what makes you remark that they are hardly the same, when my comment doesn’t suggest the opposite?
sergeykish 6y ago
Tech is there, I can write static pages like it is 90s and upload to Google Cloud with gsutil, that's not much different from FTP: <h1>My awesome site! <p>Under construction I browse without JS by default last ten years, it works fine, but it is niche. Today's web is so much more. Just look at Youtube, it is incredible. I've recently started playing Ukulele, so much data there.

dcgudeman 6y ago

“Enslave users”, really?

bbarnett 6y ago
Radicalization is the style of the time! Their side is heinous, evil, and kills babies. Our side is just, wondrous, and angel like. Thus, they enslave, we strive to break free, and bask in the pure bliss our utter and complete correctness enables.
- bbarnett 6y ago
  (12 years pass....) Musk announces the newest brain-link, of which enplantment is a requirement to use modern phones. User complaints of random, altered perceptions of reality are brushed aside, and mostly accepted. After a quick altered perception of reality. :P Perhaps enslaved is on the table, 20 years out?
- nerdponx 6y ago
  Both sides, amirite?
  - bbarnett 6y ago
    I guess this is political-ish now, but yes. I'm a Canuck, and frankly most differences between US political parties is barely tangible. For many parts of the world, with real political differences, the US left and right appear completely identical. Yet sadly, each side seems to see only the differences.
    - dleslie 6y ago
      As a fellow Canadian, I think that was more true during the Bush/Gore debates than it has been any time since; becoming less true with time. While the Democrats are somewhere right of our Liberals, and hover somewhere near our Tories, the Republicans are ... Something else entirely. We don't have any party nearly as powerful and obstructive. Try to imagine if the Bloc held control of the Senate, and you may come to understand what it's like for the Democrats when having to deal with the Republicans. The legislation they create and pass just piles up at the senate door, while the obstructionists use ever trick they can muster to undermine their opponents.
      - bbarnett 6y ago
        Hmm. My post to which you are replying, directly discusses political differences, stances on specific topics, that sort of thing. Viewed externally, much of the world cannot see a difference here. Put another way, the differences between US political parties are exceptionally tiny, when measured against the sameness of those parties. Yet what you're describing instead, is how radicalized / unable to communicate with each other, a party may be. Or those with opposing political viewpoints. Yet I see the same degree of "They're wrong, WRONG!" coming from both main political parties in the US. From people on both sides. I agree that this is "worse than it was".
        dleslie 6y ago
        Well that's the rub: Republicans aren't particularly fickle about policy: they have been known to obstruct their own bills in order to undermine the Democrats. I can't recall when last a Canadian party did such a thing. Because of that I can't really find much merit in comparing the parties on policy. Public policy doesn't appear to be the primary motivator of the GOP. The Democrats may disagree with the GOP on policy and fight to alter legislation, but the GOP disagrees with allowing the Democrats to shape policy at all.
  - viridian 6y ago
    I flagged your post, so I owe you an explanation: This comment comes across as dismissive ("amirite") and is unlikely to generate good discussion. Inf act, it's the exact kind of comment you would make if you wanted to flame bait.
tannhaeuser 6y ago
Yes enslave. It might come sooner as you think with developers so busy to take their trivial apps and dev workflows into "the cloud", where they soon find they're being monitored and otherwise taken advantage off by the likes of Atlassian and github, to at best result in their replacement by a much cheaper workforce or robots. As compared to traditional F/OSS or commercial software seeking to empower users, use workflows based on open formats and principles of site autonomy. For end users addicted to their smartphones, it's game over already.
- mrtranscendence 6y ago
  How is this going to work, exactly? I take my app to the cloud, Github monitors me, and then ... forces my employer to outsource me to a robot somehow?
pdimitar 6y ago
"Lacking any meaningful choice" on more locked-down platforms like the smartphone OS-es is a better choice of words. But when you get down to it and if you are into a bit more dramatic language, "enslaved" (with proper context attached) isn't that far off, no?

arcturus17 6y ago

How has the web been subverted? By whom? And which notable, useful old tecnologies have been discarded? The capabilities of the web have only been expanded. You can still build websites in Django and Rails and myriad other "old-school" technologies. What are you missing? Perl and CGI? To the point of this article, you can perfectly build a website with self-hosted fonts, or with default system fonts. Is this what "lock-in" and discarding good ole' tech looks to you? It's tiring to see this bitterly pessimistic, conspiracy-laden rhetoric on HN. With the added bonus that as of late it's being radicalized ("subverted", "enslaved"), as some sibling commenters are pointing out. How ironic that the people accusing everyone else of being "enslaved" are themselves carried away by the trends of the time. But more importantly, this rhetoric is profoundly demeaning. To web developers and technologists, because it assumes that they are largely incompetent or malicious, and that the commenter and his clique of retro-futurists know much better and are morally more pure than all tech professionals nowadays. To regular people at large, because it paints them as drones and slaves to greater powers, with no agency whatsoever, instead of analyzing why they may prefer Facebook over old-school forums, and empathizing with them and their problems. But above all, it's demeaning to the authors of such comments themselves, because it paints them as dejected, bitter fanatics who have lost sight of the forest for the trees. The web is still full of opportunity - artistic, technical, commercial and otherwise. If you don't think so, maybe it's time you embrace a low-tech lifestyle and devote yourself to gardening? Everyone will be better off for it.

metalforever 6y ago
This comment touches on some points which don't make sense from an engineering perspective. Different tools for different use cases. You can't throw the baby out with the bathwater and choose SPAs for every single application. They still perform poorly with SEO and people with disabilities that need a screen reader. It's not black and white (good or bad). Also, using Django and Rails are hardly the same as using Perl and CGI.
- arcturus17 6y ago
  What doesn’t make sense from an engineering perspective? I did not say you should build everything as an SPA. I said you still can build in SSR - not once did I say what you should or shouldn’t do. But I agree - some sites are better off as SSR, static sites or what have you. What in my comment made you think that I think otherwise? I also do not think that Django or Rails are remotely similar to CGI sites - what makes you remark that they are hardly the same, when my comment doesn’t suggest the opposite?

sergeykish 6y ago

Tech is there, I can write static pages like it is 90s and upload to Google Cloud with gsutil, that's not much different from FTP: <h1>My awesome site! <p>Under construction I browse without JS by default last ten years, it works fine, but it is niche. Today's web is so much more. Just look at Youtube, it is incredible. I've recently started playing Ukulele, so much data there.