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While that's true, if we take certain basic human values to be universal for the sake of discussion, it's not unreasonable to say that a loaf of bread has intri
by twicetwice 6y ago
While that's true, if we take certain basic human values to be universal for the sake of discussion, it's not unreasonable to say that a loaf of bread has intrinsic value in a way that a dollar clearly does not.
- dwaltrip 6y agoWhat’s the basis for the distinction or that choice of word? Why not just say bread is more widely valued than a the dollar? There are also many, many situations where I’d rather have dollars than bread.
- shawnz 6y agoBread isn't necessarily more widely valued than a dollar. Bread has more functional/useful value than a dollar. A dollar only has value if you can exchange it for something else
- dwaltrip 6y agoIt doesn't sound like you are arguing for intrinsic value, but I'm not sure. I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying. Although I think we should mention that one can write a sentence for bread that is very similar to the one you gave for dollars. Bread only has value if you are hungry and don't have other more preferable food sources.
- shawnz 6y agoSure, but when you are hungry then that intrinsic value is expressed for you. But there's no situation in which cash is useful except for exchanging.
- dwaltrip 6y agoWhat's special about "being hungry with no better alternatives" versus "being able to exchange with others who use the same money as me?"" I don't understand what specifically makes some kind of value "intrinsic" under your model.
- shawnz 6y ago"An object with intrinsic value may be regarded as an end, or in Kantian terminology, as an end-in-itself." "In philosophy and ethics, an end, or telos, is the ultimate goal in a series of steps. For example, according to Aristotle the end of everything we do is happiness. It is contrasted to a means, which is something that helps you achieve that goal. For example, money or power may be said to be a means to the end of happiness." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_%28ethics%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_%28ethics%29 Fiat currency and bitcoin, and to some extent gold, are not an end-in-themselves but just a means to acquire something which is actually useful to you. They are not in and of themselves useful to anybody.
- dwaltrip 6y agoFood is just a means to sustain my metabolic processes and create pleasant sensations. It isn't an end-in-itself. If those goals were satisfied through other means, whether by using bio-engineering to modify my physiology or through some other process, would bread no longer have intrinsic value?
- shawnz 6y agoThis seems uselessly contrarian. Just because there are some philosophical edge cases/open questions about how we identify intrinsic versus extrinsic value doesn't change the fact that today, for human beings, the most useful and practical definition is one in which paper bills don't have intrinsic value but bread does.
- dwaltrip 6y agoI’m just trying to get at the heart of things. I am not trying to be difficult. I honestly don’t find the concept of intrinsic value to be useful or compelling. What are some examples beyond bread that meet your criteria of intrinsically valuable? How do you determine if something is an “end-in-itself”? I find it difficult to definitively attribute that label to anything.