13 ms·

That Dothraki Horde, Part I: Barbarian Couture

121 points by parsecs 6y ago

breck 6y ago
(Complete tangent) Can someone explain to me why HBO isn’t spending $100M to recut season 7-8 and maybe reshoot a few new dialogue scenes while the actors are all still available? It seems to me in this day and age they could look at the 5 episodes with terrible IMDB scores, remaster them, and then ship it again, and everyone would forgive them and the show would make billions more because people could recommend it again. I don’t understand from a business point of view why they are letting such a gold mine just collapse.
- jasonv 6y ago
  Good Q. Those seasons were so bad it killed — or at least severely diminished — the casts’ star power. Who’s still hot from GoT?
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
    Sean Bean. If you want a character to get killed, nobody does a better job of dying heroically.
    - dmoy 6y ago
      Fingers crossed for World on Fire. Frankenstein didn't pan out - he died.
      - hoten 6y ago
        Bit of a spoiler there, isn't that the end of S1?
        RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
        My embargo period for spoilers is 5 years max.
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    TBH it felt like almost no one on the writing side wanted to deal with this anymore, they’ve could’ve gotten JRRM in to finish the show somehow but I think even he might be in the position where he just doesn’t want too / can’t finish what he started. It’s not like JRRM doesn’t have the issue of putting in too many strings that don’t pan out, at this point the books are almost too complex to actually finish. PS I think the “stars” were more responsible for killing their own careers than the show..:
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      The writing for especially the last season baffled me. They had 6 episodes to tie off a vast array of plot lines and they spent so much of that on nonsense. I think one whole episode was just mindless, irrelevant chatter between characters with no plot advancement at all. It really felt like the writers were phoning it in so they could focus on ruining star wars.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Who’s still hot from GoT? Kit Harrington, Emilia Clarke, Peter Dinklage, Lena Headey, Sophie Turner, Maisie Williams, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Iain Glen, ... whose not?
    - fnord77 6y ago
      Reek
      - BlueTemplar 6y ago
        Hopefully Alfie Allen won't get stuck in this type of character... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjK0UVBjl-Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjK0UVBjl-Q
- z3phyr 6y ago
  They don't have a source material to go with, and they cannot obviously match the underlying narrative structure.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  Because it likely won’t collapse the spin-offs would live and die on their own regardless of how good or bad GoT prime ended. GoT as a franchise is now big enough to kick off other productions even with all the controversy around the final season or from insert season here. The outcome of the Targaryen prequel or w/e they working on won’t change if they reshoot the “bad” seasons of GoT. So if they are gonna invest $100M into the franchise they might as well invest in new material.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Can someone explain to me why HBO isn’t spending $100M to recut season 7-8 and maybe reshoot a few new dialogue scenes while the actors are all still available? Because the actors that matter aren't available any more, and neither are the sets, and COVID would complicate production, and because you grossly over estimate the value it would have even if none of that were a problem. It's done, the world has moved on. If there is more money to be made on the franchise, the ROI is going to be in other series based on the property (of which they have one in development), not tweaking the old one.
  - mparramon 6y ago
    But they're doing a similar thing with Justice League: The Snyder Cut right now though. I wonder why then?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - oarsinsync 6y ago
      Snyder left during post production, to deal with death in his family. The resultant film wasn’t what he envisioned, as Whedon took over. He’s back and wants to finish making his film the way he wanted it. GoT is exactly what D&D envisioned. The fans didn’t like it, but it’s their vision, and they DGAF what anyone else thinks. We might not like that outcome as viewers, but should respect the artistry all the same. PS: the cast of justice league didn’t dedicate 8 years of their life to making that film like the cast of GoT did. They’re understandably done and moving forward, not looking back.
      - jessaustin 6y ago
        Obviously D&D wouldn't be involved with a hypothetical second draft of season 8. It's not their property anyway.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > But they're doing a similar thing with Justice League: The Snyder Cut right now though. Well, (1) the source is one feature film, not five, some feature-length, episodes of a TV series, (2) the main actors involved were available for reshoots, etc., because they are under contract for a multifilm franchise, (3) redeeming Justice League is more central to marketing further DC universe contebt than redeeming the last season of GoT is for marketing a prequel series with a different creative team, since the expected linkages are closer between the content, (4) it's also a reconfiguration from feature film to multi-episode mini-series, so it's optimizing for a different consumption format as well as “fixing” issues (in a hypothetical universe where external factors were driving business from serial streaming to theaters, reconfiguring the last season of GOT into a theatrical trilogy while fixing other issues along the way might make some sense.)
- watwut 6y ago
  Outside or obvious business reasons, there is also the aspect of actors and dialogues not being the issue. Atrocious writing, lack of consistency and inability to move plot where they want it to be in sensible way was the biggest issue. Especially in comparison with great writing of first series. Remastering few dialogs wont fix anything.
- goto11 6y ago
  The hype is gone. The hype around GoT was very much centered around the shocking twists and reveals and speculation around how everything would play out. Redoing the last seasons with better scripts would be enormously expensive, but would not generate the same hype so would not get a large audience. Making a sequel show would be a much better RoI since it could at least create some hype again, even if the hype of the original show would be hard to top.
  - Mauricebranagh 6y ago
    Yes let it go and do Faferd and the Grey Mouser, Jason Mamoa as Faferd and Masie Williams as Mouser. And yes I could totaly make Faferd being biraical Cannon.
    - wow_yes 6y ago
      Wait this is a really good idea - he'd be incredible
- Nursie 6y ago
  Because it's been and gone? The time to intervene was probably when S7 was reviewed. Future DVD and streaming revenues are probably not going to cover the costs or reworking them so ... leave it. Honestly, on a lockdown-enabled rewatch this year, I didn't think they were as bad as I remembered. I'm still frustrated with how far it goes downhill, some of the stories really don't finish well and the dialogue is just bad. OTOH I did sit in the dark and re-watch the really dark episode with the brightness mangled a bit on an OLED ... and I caught a lot more of what actually happened this time round. That episode really needs remastering in HDR...
  - alexilliamson 6y ago
    This was my impression when I rewatched with my Dad... not as bad as I remember, still sad in parts because the quality was bad in places. In retrospect, even if the showrunners had the best intentions, they were put in impossible situation with a wildly complicated story and no ending in the source material.
- birdsbirdsbirds 6y ago
  When the books are done, there is another ending. I would assume that they remake the ending then.
  - breck 6y ago
    Ah, I love this theory.
jcranmer 6y ago
I wonder where the stereotype of scantily-clad leather-fetish armor for barbarians actually comes from, given its extreme prevalence in modern culture and complete absence in actual historical cultures. Some other ahistorical stereotypes are easy to understand [1], but I don't see how both leather acquires an ahistorical importance and less armor becomes better-armored. One point to call out that the author doesn't emphasize is that steppe cultures (both in North America and Eurasia) were integral parts of vast trading networks. One of the noted features of pre-Columbian North America [2] was the extent and speed with which trade goods moved all along it. So steppe cultures would absolutely have access to all the fine luxuries of the "civilized" world. Indeed, it should be noted that marrying off royalty to steppe elites was a common strategy for keeping steppe raiding at bay. This is fairly evident to anyone who does even a modicum of research on steppe peoples, or ancient people in general (people trade! all the time!), so the notion that steppe people are inherently austere is clearly the mark of someone who does not believe in research. [1] e.g., colorless white Greco-Roman temples: all the paint faded away, leaving the underlying white stone. When the Renaissance kicks off a shift in Greco-Roman historiography to putting them at the pinnacle of human civilization, the extant white ruins were taken as reflective of what they actually looked liked and became the archetypes of modern attempts to re-summit civilization's pinnacle. [2] Although it should be noted that the steppe cultures of the US--such as the Cheyenne, Apache, Sioux--don't exist in their modern form before the introduction of the horse around about the 18th century, with the Siouan peoples not even living on the plains until pushed out there during migrations in the 17th century.
- watwut 6y ago
  80ties sexy fantasy tropes possibly?
  - kibwen 6y ago
    Much earlier than that, at least as early as the pulp novels and comic books of the 1930s. Frank Frazetta's covers for Conan The Barbarian were almost certainly what solidified the depiction in the popular consciousness.
nitwit005 6y ago
I don't see realistic clothing working well for this sort of TV show. Suppose a male lead wore a wig, fine silken cloths, and high heels. That's certainly something you may once have seen in Europe, but I'd assume it would come across as clownish rather than elegant. There's also some real danger of appearing to parody some culture, particularly with the Dothraki. You're probably safest staying well in the realm of fantasy.
- baud147258 6y ago
  I think the issue is also with Martin's statement that "The Dothraki were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures". By that statement, the comparison to other real-world cultures was already baked in the Dothraki.
- KSteffensen 6y ago
  > You're probably safest staying well in the realm of fantasy. That's fine, but then don't go claiming any sort of historical correctness. You can't have it both ways.
rendall 6y ago
Conan was always railing against the softening effects of effete civilization in a way that I always envied, but found impractical: if I were to backhand an annoying, scheming cleric, for instance, I would not be able to shrug off the consequences as Conan could. There seems to me a bit of motte and bailey going on with this essay. The motte, unobjectionable part is that such representations are historically inaccurate, people may develop an inaccurate understanding of history and since "it is a collection of unmitigated pedantry, after all" let's dig deep and nit-pick all the details. Great! The bailey, less demonstrated part is that the Dothraki is a problematic, demeaning, poorly researched, badly written stereotype that deserves nothing but scorn. "We’re not here to ‘cancel’ ASOIF..." but let's write a 3 part series wherein it "is going to become increasingly apparent that at least effective research was not done" where he will "... treat Martin’s words much more charitably than they probably deserve" The essay author makes a big deal out of this off-hand comment on GRRM's blog: "The Dothraki were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures... Mongols and Huns, certainly, but also Alans, Sioux, Cheyenne, and various other Amerindian tribes... seasoned with a dash of pure fantasy." But the actual quote on his blog goes on, which contradicts the central thesis of the article: "... So any resemblance to Arabs or Turks is coincidental. Well, except to the extent that the Turks were also originally horsemen of the steppes, not unlike the Alans, Huns, and the rest. In general, though, while I do draw inspiration from history, I try to avoid direct one-for-one transplants, whether of individuals or of entire cultures. Just as it not correct to say that Robert was Henry VIII or Edward IV, it would not be correct to say that the Dothraki are Mongols."[1] [1]: https://grrm.livejournal.com/263800.html?thread=15364984#t15364984 https://grrm.livejournal.com/263800.html?thread=15364984#t15... Edit: switched motte and bailey
- watwut 6y ago
  Why is "motte, less demonstrated" that they are poorly researched badly written stereotype? At least when it comes to clothing, the blog author does indeed demonstrate that. > We’re not here to ‘cancel’ ASOIF..." but let's write a 3 part series wherein it "is going to become increasingly apparent that at least effective research was not done" where he will "... treat Martin’s words much more charitably than they probably deserve" There is no contradiction in two. It is completely absolutely valid to criticize research and clearly comment on the whole "nomad cultures are nothing like this" aspect of GoT as a super popular fiction - whose fans indeed do claim "it was like that". "Cancelling" refers to censorship. You cant cry censorship just because someone politely criticized something. However, writing 3 part series on something being inaccurate or even completely shitty (which author did not done) is not cancelling. Also, author criticized other aspects of GoT a lot previously - notably Jamie military activities. It is not just about Dothraki.
greenkey 6y ago
The font on this blog would seem appropriate for the style and subject matter, but it’s hard for me to read.
nemo44x 6y ago
The author goes out of their way to suggest fans of GoT are uninformed/gullible by believing the story is their best source of medieval culture (its fiction - who thinks there is any historic reality? There’s dragons and magic in it.) and that critique of their critique is childish (the grownups can read on....) - not a great way to start. I mean, is it reasonable to assume anyone who thinks GoT is in any way based in historic reality is even going to read the blog? Then the blog goes into wild assumptions about the fictional lands climate and assumes the land the Dothraki roamed should somehow be similar in climate to Kings Landing and uses this to critique not only their clothing but the broader Freman myth that the ideal tough man can withstand harsh conditions like cold while being scantly clad in leather. Again, we know next to nothing about the climate they lived in or the planet they are on if it is even a planet like ours. Because it’s fantasy fiction. We can only assume the Dothraki know what clothing is best for them. The article continues with the same pattern - assume people are misinformed and that they think GoT is based on historic realities and that GoT is responsible for continuing to push these false stereotypes. So if the point here is that GoT is not anywhere near historically accurate then to that I say: it’s fantasy. It has dragons and magic. It’s not based in our reality or history even if inspired by it. They don’t even respect our physics in the way they make swords (the fires they make could never be hot enough to cast with) so how can we assume nearly anything else? Yes, Martin claimed the Dothraki were based on his understanding of certain historic cultures and sure maybe his understanding is uninformed. But we don’t know specifically which parts informed his creation of the Dothraki and it’s a bit silly to pick the things you want to assume and pick that assumption apart.
- goto11 6y ago
  > Yes, Martin claimed the Dothraki were based on his understanding of certain historic cultures and sure maybe his understanding is uninformed Yes and this is the premise of the article. What angers you so much about examining this subject?
  - nemo44x 6y ago
    Nothing angers me about examining it. It’s just a very poor examination. It makes all types of assumptions about climate in a land where the seasons lasted years and were unpredictable in their length. We don’t know which parts Martin was inspired by. To make broad assumptions while ignoring facts like the mysterious ways seasonality worked in this fantasy land makes for an incoherent and nonsensical critique of Dothraki garb. At no point does Martin even use any earthly culture as exposition.
AlexMoffat 6y ago
This post angers some people. These people will explode next week as reading the Sparta and Fremen series will show.
pratik661 6y ago
I read a 9th century book by an Arab trader visiting the Vikings (Ibn Fadlan). Based on his descriptions of the Vikings, their culture and sexual mores were very similar to that of the Dothraki in GoT.
yodelshady 6y ago
Good post as always. Interestingly, the books also debunk the Fremen mirage at several points. GRRM is quite keen on armour solving a lot of your problems in combat.

121 points by parsecs 6y ago

(Complete tangent) Can someone explain to me why HBO isn’t spending $100M to recut season 7-8 and maybe reshoot a few new dialogue scenes while the actors are all still available? It seems to me in this day and age they could look at the 5 episodes with terrible IMDB scores, remaster them, and then ship it again, and everyone would forgive them and the show would make billions more because people could recommend it again. I don’t understand from a business point of view why they are letting such a gold mine just collapse.

jasonv 6y ago
Good Q. Those seasons were so bad it killed — or at least severely diminished — the casts’ star power. Who’s still hot from GoT?
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
  Sean Bean. If you want a character to get killed, nobody does a better job of dying heroically.
  - dmoy 6y ago
    Fingers crossed for World on Fire. Frankenstein didn't pan out - he died.
    - hoten 6y ago
      Bit of a spoiler there, isn't that the end of S1?
      - RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
        My embargo period for spoilers is 5 years max.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  TBH it felt like almost no one on the writing side wanted to deal with this anymore, they’ve could’ve gotten JRRM in to finish the show somehow but I think even he might be in the position where he just doesn’t want too / can’t finish what he started. It’s not like JRRM doesn’t have the issue of putting in too many strings that don’t pan out, at this point the books are almost too complex to actually finish. PS I think the “stars” were more responsible for killing their own careers than the show..:
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    The writing for especially the last season baffled me. They had 6 episodes to tie off a vast array of plot lines and they spent so much of that on nonsense. I think one whole episode was just mindless, irrelevant chatter between characters with no plot advancement at all. It really felt like the writers were phoning it in so they could focus on ruining star wars.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Who’s still hot from GoT? Kit Harrington, Emilia Clarke, Peter Dinklage, Lena Headey, Sophie Turner, Maisie Williams, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Iain Glen, ... whose not?
  - fnord77 6y ago
    Reek
    - BlueTemplar 6y ago
      Hopefully Alfie Allen won't get stuck in this type of character... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjK0UVBjl-Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjK0UVBjl-Q
z3phyr 6y ago
They don't have a source material to go with, and they cannot obviously match the underlying narrative structure.
dogma1138 6y ago
Because it likely won’t collapse the spin-offs would live and die on their own regardless of how good or bad GoT prime ended. GoT as a franchise is now big enough to kick off other productions even with all the controversy around the final season or from insert season here. The outcome of the Targaryen prequel or w/e they working on won’t change if they reshoot the “bad” seasons of GoT. So if they are gonna invest $100M into the franchise they might as well invest in new material.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Can someone explain to me why HBO isn’t spending $100M to recut season 7-8 and maybe reshoot a few new dialogue scenes while the actors are all still available? Because the actors that matter aren't available any more, and neither are the sets, and COVID would complicate production, and because you grossly over estimate the value it would have even if none of that were a problem. It's done, the world has moved on. If there is more money to be made on the franchise, the ROI is going to be in other series based on the property (of which they have one in development), not tweaking the old one.
- mparramon 6y ago
  But they're doing a similar thing with Justice League: The Snyder Cut right now though. I wonder why then?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - oarsinsync 6y ago
    Snyder left during post production, to deal with death in his family. The resultant film wasn’t what he envisioned, as Whedon took over. He’s back and wants to finish making his film the way he wanted it. GoT is exactly what D&D envisioned. The fans didn’t like it, but it’s their vision, and they DGAF what anyone else thinks. We might not like that outcome as viewers, but should respect the artistry all the same. PS: the cast of justice league didn’t dedicate 8 years of their life to making that film like the cast of GoT did. They’re understandably done and moving forward, not looking back.
    - jessaustin 6y ago
      Obviously D&D wouldn't be involved with a hypothetical second draft of season 8. It's not their property anyway.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > But they're doing a similar thing with Justice League: The Snyder Cut right now though. Well, (1) the source is one feature film, not five, some feature-length, episodes of a TV series, (2) the main actors involved were available for reshoots, etc., because they are under contract for a multifilm franchise, (3) redeeming Justice League is more central to marketing further DC universe contebt than redeeming the last season of GoT is for marketing a prequel series with a different creative team, since the expected linkages are closer between the content, (4) it's also a reconfiguration from feature film to multi-episode mini-series, so it's optimizing for a different consumption format as well as “fixing” issues (in a hypothetical universe where external factors were driving business from serial streaming to theaters, reconfiguring the last season of GOT into a theatrical trilogy while fixing other issues along the way might make some sense.)
watwut 6y ago
Outside or obvious business reasons, there is also the aspect of actors and dialogues not being the issue. Atrocious writing, lack of consistency and inability to move plot where they want it to be in sensible way was the biggest issue. Especially in comparison with great writing of first series. Remastering few dialogs wont fix anything.
goto11 6y ago
The hype is gone. The hype around GoT was very much centered around the shocking twists and reveals and speculation around how everything would play out. Redoing the last seasons with better scripts would be enormously expensive, but would not generate the same hype so would not get a large audience. Making a sequel show would be a much better RoI since it could at least create some hype again, even if the hype of the original show would be hard to top.
- Mauricebranagh 6y ago
  Yes let it go and do Faferd and the Grey Mouser, Jason Mamoa as Faferd and Masie Williams as Mouser. And yes I could totaly make Faferd being biraical Cannon.
  - wow_yes 6y ago
    Wait this is a really good idea - he'd be incredible
Nursie 6y ago
Because it's been and gone? The time to intervene was probably when S7 was reviewed. Future DVD and streaming revenues are probably not going to cover the costs or reworking them so ... leave it. Honestly, on a lockdown-enabled rewatch this year, I didn't think they were as bad as I remembered. I'm still frustrated with how far it goes downhill, some of the stories really don't finish well and the dialogue is just bad. OTOH I did sit in the dark and re-watch the really dark episode with the brightness mangled a bit on an OLED ... and I caught a lot more of what actually happened this time round. That episode really needs remastering in HDR...
- alexilliamson 6y ago
  This was my impression when I rewatched with my Dad... not as bad as I remember, still sad in parts because the quality was bad in places. In retrospect, even if the showrunners had the best intentions, they were put in impossible situation with a wildly complicated story and no ending in the source material.
birdsbirdsbirds 6y ago
When the books are done, there is another ending. I would assume that they remake the ending then.
- breck 6y ago
  Ah, I love this theory.

jcranmer 6y ago

I wonder where the stereotype of scantily-clad leather-fetish armor for barbarians actually comes from, given its extreme prevalence in modern culture and complete absence in actual historical cultures. Some other ahistorical stereotypes are easy to understand [1], but I don't see how both leather acquires an ahistorical importance and less armor becomes better-armored. One point to call out that the author doesn't emphasize is that steppe cultures (both in North America and Eurasia) were integral parts of vast trading networks. One of the noted features of pre-Columbian North America [2] was the extent and speed with which trade goods moved all along it. So steppe cultures would absolutely have access to all the fine luxuries of the "civilized" world. Indeed, it should be noted that marrying off royalty to steppe elites was a common strategy for keeping steppe raiding at bay. This is fairly evident to anyone who does even a modicum of research on steppe peoples, or ancient people in general (people trade! all the time!), so the notion that steppe people are inherently austere is clearly the mark of someone who does not believe in research. [1] e.g., colorless white Greco-Roman temples: all the paint faded away, leaving the underlying white stone. When the Renaissance kicks off a shift in Greco-Roman historiography to putting them at the pinnacle of human civilization, the extant white ruins were taken as reflective of what they actually looked liked and became the archetypes of modern attempts to re-summit civilization's pinnacle. [2] Although it should be noted that the steppe cultures of the US--such as the Cheyenne, Apache, Sioux--don't exist in their modern form before the introduction of the horse around about the 18th century, with the Siouan peoples not even living on the plains until pushed out there during migrations in the 17th century.

watwut 6y ago
80ties sexy fantasy tropes possibly?
- kibwen 6y ago
  Much earlier than that, at least as early as the pulp novels and comic books of the 1930s. Frank Frazetta's covers for Conan The Barbarian were almost certainly what solidified the depiction in the popular consciousness.

nitwit005 6y ago

I don't see realistic clothing working well for this sort of TV show. Suppose a male lead wore a wig, fine silken cloths, and high heels. That's certainly something you may once have seen in Europe, but I'd assume it would come across as clownish rather than elegant. There's also some real danger of appearing to parody some culture, particularly with the Dothraki. You're probably safest staying well in the realm of fantasy.

baud147258 6y ago
I think the issue is also with Martin's statement that "The Dothraki were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures". By that statement, the comparison to other real-world cultures was already baked in the Dothraki.
KSteffensen 6y ago
> You're probably safest staying well in the realm of fantasy. That's fine, but then don't go claiming any sort of historical correctness. You can't have it both ways.

rendall 6y ago

Conan was always railing against the softening effects of effete civilization in a way that I always envied, but found impractical: if I were to backhand an annoying, scheming cleric, for instance, I would not be able to shrug off the consequences as Conan could. There seems to me a bit of motte and bailey going on with this essay. The motte, unobjectionable part is that such representations are historically inaccurate, people may develop an inaccurate understanding of history and since "it is a collection of unmitigated pedantry, after all" let's dig deep and nit-pick all the details. Great! The bailey, less demonstrated part is that the Dothraki is a problematic, demeaning, poorly researched, badly written stereotype that deserves nothing but scorn. "We’re not here to ‘cancel’ ASOIF..." but let's write a 3 part series wherein it "is going to become increasingly apparent that at least effective research was not done" where he will "... treat Martin’s words much more charitably than they probably deserve" The essay author makes a big deal out of this off-hand comment on GRRM's blog: "The Dothraki were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures... Mongols and Huns, certainly, but also Alans, Sioux, Cheyenne, and various other Amerindian tribes... seasoned with a dash of pure fantasy." But the actual quote on his blog goes on, which contradicts the central thesis of the article: "... So any resemblance to Arabs or Turks is coincidental. Well, except to the extent that the Turks were also originally horsemen of the steppes, not unlike the Alans, Huns, and the rest. In general, though, while I do draw inspiration from history, I try to avoid direct one-for-one transplants, whether of individuals or of entire cultures. Just as it not correct to say that Robert was Henry VIII or Edward IV, it would not be correct to say that the Dothraki are Mongols."[1] [1]: https://grrm.livejournal.com/263800.html?thread=15364984#t15364984 https://grrm.livejournal.com/263800.html?thread=15364984#t15... Edit: switched motte and bailey

watwut 6y ago
Why is "motte, less demonstrated" that they are poorly researched badly written stereotype? At least when it comes to clothing, the blog author does indeed demonstrate that. > We’re not here to ‘cancel’ ASOIF..." but let's write a 3 part series wherein it "is going to become increasingly apparent that at least effective research was not done" where he will "... treat Martin’s words much more charitably than they probably deserve" There is no contradiction in two. It is completely absolutely valid to criticize research and clearly comment on the whole "nomad cultures are nothing like this" aspect of GoT as a super popular fiction - whose fans indeed do claim "it was like that". "Cancelling" refers to censorship. You cant cry censorship just because someone politely criticized something. However, writing 3 part series on something being inaccurate or even completely shitty (which author did not done) is not cancelling. Also, author criticized other aspects of GoT a lot previously - notably Jamie military activities. It is not just about Dothraki.

greenkey 6y ago

The font on this blog would seem appropriate for the style and subject matter, but it’s hard for me to read.

nemo44x 6y ago

The author goes out of their way to suggest fans of GoT are uninformed/gullible by believing the story is their best source of medieval culture (its fiction - who thinks there is any historic reality? There’s dragons and magic in it.) and that critique of their critique is childish (the grownups can read on....) - not a great way to start. I mean, is it reasonable to assume anyone who thinks GoT is in any way based in historic reality is even going to read the blog? Then the blog goes into wild assumptions about the fictional lands climate and assumes the land the Dothraki roamed should somehow be similar in climate to Kings Landing and uses this to critique not only their clothing but the broader Freman myth that the ideal tough man can withstand harsh conditions like cold while being scantly clad in leather. Again, we know next to nothing about the climate they lived in or the planet they are on if it is even a planet like ours. Because it’s fantasy fiction. We can only assume the Dothraki know what clothing is best for them. The article continues with the same pattern - assume people are misinformed and that they think GoT is based on historic realities and that GoT is responsible for continuing to push these false stereotypes. So if the point here is that GoT is not anywhere near historically accurate then to that I say: it’s fantasy. It has dragons and magic. It’s not based in our reality or history even if inspired by it. They don’t even respect our physics in the way they make swords (the fires they make could never be hot enough to cast with) so how can we assume nearly anything else? Yes, Martin claimed the Dothraki were based on his understanding of certain historic cultures and sure maybe his understanding is uninformed. But we don’t know specifically which parts informed his creation of the Dothraki and it’s a bit silly to pick the things you want to assume and pick that assumption apart.

goto11 6y ago
> Yes, Martin claimed the Dothraki were based on his understanding of certain historic cultures and sure maybe his understanding is uninformed Yes and this is the premise of the article. What angers you so much about examining this subject?
- nemo44x 6y ago
  Nothing angers me about examining it. It’s just a very poor examination. It makes all types of assumptions about climate in a land where the seasons lasted years and were unpredictable in their length. We don’t know which parts Martin was inspired by. To make broad assumptions while ignoring facts like the mysterious ways seasonality worked in this fantasy land makes for an incoherent and nonsensical critique of Dothraki garb. At no point does Martin even use any earthly culture as exposition.

AlexMoffat 6y ago

This post angers some people. These people will explode next week as reading the Sparta and Fremen series will show.

pratik661 6y ago

I read a 9th century book by an Arab trader visiting the Vikings (Ibn Fadlan). Based on his descriptions of the Vikings, their culture and sexual mores were very similar to that of the Dothraki in GoT.

yodelshady 6y ago

Good post as always. Interestingly, the books also debunk the Fremen mirage at several points. GRRM is quite keen on armour solving a lot of your problems in combat.