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"You are probably going to be a very successful computer person. But you're going to go through life thinking that girls don't like you because you're a nerd. A

"You are probably going to be a very successful computer person. But you're going to go through life thinking that girls don't like you because you're a nerd. And I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, that that won't be true. It'll be because you're an asshole." ~ The Social Network A good number of social activists are rude and abrasive and then blame how people react as racism/sexism. No one wants to be around or work with anyone who is a jerk. The quote above sorta reminds me of how this person is going about their life.

basicneo 6y ago
Experiencing marginalisation is frustrating, and frustrated people sometimes have outbursts. I don't think we can infer much from a few highly publicised events.
- chrissnell 6y ago
  Was she marginalized? She ran a team at Google. How many of us can claim that?
- mstg 6y ago
  How was she marginalized? Marginalized means keeping someone in a powerless or unimportant position in society, which she was not as she had one of the most important roles in AI and was a manager.
- dheera 6y ago
  Even if you are marginalized, threatening to resign with ultimatums will never work in your favor unless you have an entire union behind you.
  - basicneo 6y ago
    I wasn't commenting on expected outcomes of their behaviour, just that I think it's a bit of a jump say to they are "rude and abrasive " in general.
hardwaregeek 6y ago
That's a little ungenerous. Social activists may go over the line and be rude or abrasive, but unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist. Activism fundamentally requires telling people that their actions should be modified, that their beliefs may be flawed, that their systems have problems. It's really hard to do that and be a likeable person. Of course social activists may at times cross the line and be unnecessarily rude or abrasive. But I'd have more sympathy because their fundamental job is to be subversive and critical of people.
- madrox 6y ago
  Ilhan Omar said something similar on Twitter in response to Obama's criticisms of the "defund the police" slogan. I think you're being overly generous to social activists. Their fundamental job is to bring social change. You can't change anything by simply alienating those who disagree with you. That creates political entrenchment. The fact is that Obama has got way more done for America than Omar, so I'm inclined to think he's right.
  - hardwaregeek 6y ago
    I think we need to distinguish between social activist and politician. Social activists can certainly be politicians, such as Ilhan Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Bernie Sanders etc. But many are not. Obama is not a social activist. He's an effective politician, one who has certainly brought about change. But he's not a social activist. Many social activists were famously unpopular. Martin Luther King died with a 66% disapproval rating^[1]. Susan B. Anthony was ridiculed and accused of trying to destroy the institution of marriage (sound familiar?). Of course some activists veer too far. Jane Fonda is an example. I don't fault her opposition to the Vietnam War, but her infamous photo practically advocated for violence against American troops. In a sense the aim of social activists is to be ahead of their time. MLK was reviled in his time and practically infallible today. We need both politicians and activists for progress. Politicians push forward the policy, but the activists push forward the politicians. Without activists, politicians can end up in holding patterns, afraid to lose popularity. Without politicians, activists are just screaming into a void. [1]: https://www.newsweek.com/martin-luther-king-jr-was-not-always-popular-back-day-780387 https://www.newsweek.com/martin-luther-king-jr-was-not-alway...
that_guy_iain 6y ago
I read her email and all I could read was her privilege and her entitlement. I think she knows there is racism and sexism in play but thinks everything is about that. The feedback going to HR was probably because they didn’t feel comfortable telling her it direct for fear of reprisals from her.
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  One unusual privilege that she has is the ability to describe her experience of racism and sexism and expect to be listened to - her e-mail here speaks mostly on this point. Her e-mail identifies that you can speak on racism and sexism as much as you want, but all of your speech will be routed to /dev/null.
  - that_guy_iain 6y ago
    > Her e-mail identifies that you can speak on racism and sexism as much as you want, but all of your speech will be routed to /dev/null. I think the fact people need to go through HR to give Feedback means the speech isn't going to /dev/null. People seem to take her speech very seriously and don't want to feel her wrath. In fact, Google even appeared to take her concerns onboard after she got a lawyer and only threatened to sue. She just seems to expect more which is the entitlement I was talking about.
    - throwaway2245 6y ago
      (My intention above was to say that Timnit Gebru does have that privilege, and is using it to speak for other people who don't have that privilege)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
mstg 6y ago
I totally agree with you. Screaming racism/sexism/marginalisation every time someone disagrees with you is annoying and tiring. I am a second degree immigrant in Norway and I always see this behaviour in people who blame society when they don't get their way when in reality people rarely get their way all the time. I hope the level of stupid activism does not reach Norway although we do copy many stupidities of the US :)
- victor106 6y ago
  Falsely screaming racism and sexism at everything hurts people who are actually impacted. This behavior also enables racists and sexists.
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    Worst of all, it pushes non-racists to become actual racists. If you start attacking people who previously had no problem with you, grouping them as evil on the basis of their physical characteristics, you’re going to get various forms of backlash. One of those is going to be those people seeking support among others belonging to the evil group identity that you carved out for them, and they’re going to push back in kind.
    - krapp 6y ago
      > One of those is going to be those people seeking support among others belonging to the evil group identity that you carved out for them, and they’re going to push back in kind. I don't think that happens very often outside of the villain origin stories in comic books. A normal non-racist person doesn't react to being called a racist by becoming the biggest racist they can just to spite people.
      - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
        Oh, I don’t think it happens in the common case, no. But it absolutely happens at the margins, particularly among folks who are more predisposed to radicalization. I know that happens. And racism isn’t binary. You don’t have to be pushed all the way to wearing KKK garb to have some level of contempt or prejudice towards other races. So a great way to avoid this outcome and minimize exacerbating existing tensions is to not engage in more divisive hostility on the basis of their identity. Like the guy she is berating likely didn’t even consciously realize he was white until she made a point of reminding him in the worst way possible. A dumb, counterproductive strategy. But her behavior is going to make it harder for all other black people to get hired. People who are otherwise not concerned with race or sex at all will see this and then need to convince themselves that she is not representative of most black people. Some will undoubtedly just go with the option that seems like it carries the lowest risk to them personally and professionally. Personally I would not hire anybody who has a history of trying to weaponize twitter. And being smeared as a racist, like she is doing to Jeff Dean, can be extremely damaging and severely career limiting. He’ll probably be ok, but it’s something that many people can never move past, especially if Vice or Vox or Salon or whatever culture war libel vehicle decides that they can twist your story into a hot hit piece.
golergka 6y ago
Key & Peele had an excellent sketch about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3h6es6zh1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3h6es6zh1c

basicneo 6y ago

Experiencing marginalisation is frustrating, and frustrated people sometimes have outbursts. I don't think we can infer much from a few highly publicised events.

chrissnell 6y ago
Was she marginalized? She ran a team at Google. How many of us can claim that?
mstg 6y ago
How was she marginalized? Marginalized means keeping someone in a powerless or unimportant position in society, which she was not as she had one of the most important roles in AI and was a manager.
dheera 6y ago
Even if you are marginalized, threatening to resign with ultimatums will never work in your favor unless you have an entire union behind you.
- basicneo 6y ago
  I wasn't commenting on expected outcomes of their behaviour, just that I think it's a bit of a jump say to they are "rude and abrasive " in general.

hardwaregeek 6y ago

That's a little ungenerous. Social activists may go over the line and be rude or abrasive, but unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist. Activism fundamentally requires telling people that their actions should be modified, that their beliefs may be flawed, that their systems have problems. It's really hard to do that and be a likeable person. Of course social activists may at times cross the line and be unnecessarily rude or abrasive. But I'd have more sympathy because their fundamental job is to be subversive and critical of people.

madrox 6y ago
Ilhan Omar said something similar on Twitter in response to Obama's criticisms of the "defund the police" slogan. I think you're being overly generous to social activists. Their fundamental job is to bring social change. You can't change anything by simply alienating those who disagree with you. That creates political entrenchment. The fact is that Obama has got way more done for America than Omar, so I'm inclined to think he's right.
- hardwaregeek 6y ago
  I think we need to distinguish between social activist and politician. Social activists can certainly be politicians, such as Ilhan Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Bernie Sanders etc. But many are not. Obama is not a social activist. He's an effective politician, one who has certainly brought about change. But he's not a social activist. Many social activists were famously unpopular. Martin Luther King died with a 66% disapproval rating^[1]. Susan B. Anthony was ridiculed and accused of trying to destroy the institution of marriage (sound familiar?). Of course some activists veer too far. Jane Fonda is an example. I don't fault her opposition to the Vietnam War, but her infamous photo practically advocated for violence against American troops. In a sense the aim of social activists is to be ahead of their time. MLK was reviled in his time and practically infallible today. We need both politicians and activists for progress. Politicians push forward the policy, but the activists push forward the politicians. Without activists, politicians can end up in holding patterns, afraid to lose popularity. Without politicians, activists are just screaming into a void. [1]: https://www.newsweek.com/martin-luther-king-jr-was-not-always-popular-back-day-780387 https://www.newsweek.com/martin-luther-king-jr-was-not-alway...

that_guy_iain 6y ago

I read her email and all I could read was her privilege and her entitlement. I think she knows there is racism and sexism in play but thinks everything is about that. The feedback going to HR was probably because they didn’t feel comfortable telling her it direct for fear of reprisals from her.

throwaway2245 6y ago
One unusual privilege that she has is the ability to describe her experience of racism and sexism and expect to be listened to - her e-mail here speaks mostly on this point. Her e-mail identifies that you can speak on racism and sexism as much as you want, but all of your speech will be routed to /dev/null.
- that_guy_iain 6y ago
  > Her e-mail identifies that you can speak on racism and sexism as much as you want, but all of your speech will be routed to /dev/null. I think the fact people need to go through HR to give Feedback means the speech isn't going to /dev/null. People seem to take her speech very seriously and don't want to feel her wrath. In fact, Google even appeared to take her concerns onboard after she got a lawyer and only threatened to sue. She just seems to expect more which is the entitlement I was talking about.
  - throwaway2245 6y ago
    (My intention above was to say that Timnit Gebru does have that privilege, and is using it to speak for other people who don't have that privilege)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

mstg 6y ago

I totally agree with you. Screaming racism/sexism/marginalisation every time someone disagrees with you is annoying and tiring. I am a second degree immigrant in Norway and I always see this behaviour in people who blame society when they don't get their way when in reality people rarely get their way all the time. I hope the level of stupid activism does not reach Norway although we do copy many stupidities of the US :)

victor106 6y ago
Falsely screaming racism and sexism at everything hurts people who are actually impacted. This behavior also enables racists and sexists.
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  Worst of all, it pushes non-racists to become actual racists. If you start attacking people who previously had no problem with you, grouping them as evil on the basis of their physical characteristics, you’re going to get various forms of backlash. One of those is going to be those people seeking support among others belonging to the evil group identity that you carved out for them, and they’re going to push back in kind.
  - krapp 6y ago
    > One of those is going to be those people seeking support among others belonging to the evil group identity that you carved out for them, and they’re going to push back in kind. I don't think that happens very often outside of the villain origin stories in comic books. A normal non-racist person doesn't react to being called a racist by becoming the biggest racist they can just to spite people.
    - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
      Oh, I don’t think it happens in the common case, no. But it absolutely happens at the margins, particularly among folks who are more predisposed to radicalization. I know that happens. And racism isn’t binary. You don’t have to be pushed all the way to wearing KKK garb to have some level of contempt or prejudice towards other races. So a great way to avoid this outcome and minimize exacerbating existing tensions is to not engage in more divisive hostility on the basis of their identity. Like the guy she is berating likely didn’t even consciously realize he was white until she made a point of reminding him in the worst way possible. A dumb, counterproductive strategy. But her behavior is going to make it harder for all other black people to get hired. People who are otherwise not concerned with race or sex at all will see this and then need to convince themselves that she is not representative of most black people. Some will undoubtedly just go with the option that seems like it carries the lowest risk to them personally and professionally. Personally I would not hire anybody who has a history of trying to weaponize twitter. And being smeared as a racist, like she is doing to Jeff Dean, can be extremely damaging and severely career limiting. He’ll probably be ok, but it’s something that many people can never move past, especially if Vice or Vox or Salon or whatever culture war libel vehicle decides that they can twist your story into a hot hit piece.

golergka 6y ago

Key & Peele had an excellent sketch about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3h6es6zh1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3h6es6zh1c