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Talent and skill development also happen in the workplace... so requiring U.S. companies to hire U.S. workers serves the nation. We see a similar issue in acade

by jtdev 6y ago

Talent and skill development also happen in the workplace... so requiring U.S. companies to hire U.S. workers serves the nation. We see a similar issue in academia, where top programs have a huge cohort of foreign students - students who are likely to take the knowledge gained (at institutions built in part through decades of public funding) back to their home countries (understandably).

tisu32 6y ago
That's not quite true in my opinon. Take your example of academia. Many students will chose to stay in the US after (if they can, because salaries tend to be higher than in many other countries) rather than depart. Also, instead of "taking" knowledge, they might actually create some new knowledge. Think about how many brilliant professors in US universities were once foreign post-docs there. If the US chooses to close its borders to this sort of talent, it will considerably weaken itself in the longer term against countries enacting more rational immigration policies.
- jtdev 6y ago
  And many students choose to return to their origin countries... some of these countries are even exerting influence on our academic institutions, e.g., China’s “Confucius Institute” model. If you think that’s in the interest of the U.S. you’re being willfully ignorant.
  - tisu32 6y ago
    That's not what I said. Yes, some students (a small minority) will be acting in the interests of other countries. Overall, the US is a net winner in terms of benefits vs costs of foreign students. This is one of the reasons many colleges are currently under strong financial strain: no international students to pay the bills. Would you rather close borders to all foreign students?
    - jtdev 6y ago
      Maybe. American working class students have been priced out of many top academic programs, yet foreign students continued to pile in, solidifying the prohibitive cost of these programs. How is that a good thing? I’m personally happy to see these institutions struggle... they clearly need to find a way to serve more than the wealthy elite here and abroad.
      - 908B64B197 6y ago
        How else are universities supposed to finance these programs?
        jtdev 6y ago
        Most have multi-billion dollar endowments and run their campuses like country clubs for the world’s elite’s kids.
DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
The US is incredibly lucky that so many of the smartest people in the world come to do research at its universities. Most countries would love to be in that position. Cutting off that immigration in order to "serve the nation" would be incredibly short-sighted. > students who are likely to take the knowledge gained (at institutions built in part through decades of public funding) back to their home countries (understandably). Or, if they're allowed to, remain in the US and contribute to its continued technological and scientific dominance. Even if they eventually leave the US, they don't just soak up knowledge while they're in the US. Most actual research is done by graduate students, for relatively meager pay. The US has a continual influx of extremely smart people who are willing to work relatively cheaply to keep American research institutions at the forefront of scientific research. How is this a bad deal for the United States?
- jtdev 6y ago
  It’s about balance... what SV is doing with H1B is not about keeping the U.S. at “the forefront of scientific research”.
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
    I was talking about academia, which is why I said "scientific research." What SV is doing is perpetuating US dominance in software (and some hardware development fields). If most of the skilled software engineers in the world become off-limits to SV companies, then the global software industry will cease to be so heavily concentrated in SV. It's strange and amusing to see people earning hundreds of thousands of dollars a year complaining about foreigners undercutting their salaries. They imagine that if immigration is restricted, then the open jobs will go to Americans. The reality is that the jobs will leave. Aesop must have written a fable about this sort of situation.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - jtdev 6y ago
      Do you think Xi and Modi would be allowing their citizens to work and study in the U.S. if it were not advantageous to China and India?
908B64B197 6y ago
That's a huge competitive advantage. Country X gets the top students from country X, the US gets the top students from the world! That smart TA from X European country helping American undergrads on that problem set? He's not helping undergrads from his country. He's not publishing papers that would boost his country's schools either. One might ask if the lab he works at would even exist without foreign grad students! Would there be enough native applicants to staff it? Graduate school isn't a zero sum game. It's an ecosystem and ecosystems have a huge network effect.

by jtdev 6y ago

tisu32 6y ago

That's not quite true in my opinon. Take your example of academia. Many students will chose to stay in the US after (if they can, because salaries tend to be higher than in many other countries) rather than depart. Also, instead of "taking" knowledge, they might actually create some new knowledge. Think about how many brilliant professors in US universities were once foreign post-docs there. If the US chooses to close its borders to this sort of talent, it will considerably weaken itself in the longer term against countries enacting more rational immigration policies.

jtdev 6y ago
And many students choose to return to their origin countries... some of these countries are even exerting influence on our academic institutions, e.g., China’s “Confucius Institute” model. If you think that’s in the interest of the U.S. you’re being willfully ignorant.
- tisu32 6y ago
  That's not what I said. Yes, some students (a small minority) will be acting in the interests of other countries. Overall, the US is a net winner in terms of benefits vs costs of foreign students. This is one of the reasons many colleges are currently under strong financial strain: no international students to pay the bills. Would you rather close borders to all foreign students?
  - jtdev 6y ago
    Maybe. American working class students have been priced out of many top academic programs, yet foreign students continued to pile in, solidifying the prohibitive cost of these programs. How is that a good thing? I’m personally happy to see these institutions struggle... they clearly need to find a way to serve more than the wealthy elite here and abroad.
    - 908B64B197 6y ago
      How else are universities supposed to finance these programs?
      - jtdev 6y ago
        Most have multi-billion dollar endowments and run their campuses like country clubs for the world’s elite’s kids.

DiogenesKynikos 6y ago

The US is incredibly lucky that so many of the smartest people in the world come to do research at its universities. Most countries would love to be in that position. Cutting off that immigration in order to "serve the nation" would be incredibly short-sighted. > students who are likely to take the knowledge gained (at institutions built in part through decades of public funding) back to their home countries (understandably). Or, if they're allowed to, remain in the US and contribute to its continued technological and scientific dominance. Even if they eventually leave the US, they don't just soak up knowledge while they're in the US. Most actual research is done by graduate students, for relatively meager pay. The US has a continual influx of extremely smart people who are willing to work relatively cheaply to keep American research institutions at the forefront of scientific research. How is this a bad deal for the United States?

jtdev 6y ago
It’s about balance... what SV is doing with H1B is not about keeping the U.S. at “the forefront of scientific research”.
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  I was talking about academia, which is why I said "scientific research." What SV is doing is perpetuating US dominance in software (and some hardware development fields). If most of the skilled software engineers in the world become off-limits to SV companies, then the global software industry will cease to be so heavily concentrated in SV. It's strange and amusing to see people earning hundreds of thousands of dollars a year complaining about foreigners undercutting their salaries. They imagine that if immigration is restricted, then the open jobs will go to Americans. The reality is that the jobs will leave. Aesop must have written a fable about this sort of situation.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - jtdev 6y ago
    Do you think Xi and Modi would be allowing their citizens to work and study in the U.S. if it were not advantageous to China and India?

908B64B197 6y ago

That's a huge competitive advantage. Country X gets the top students from country X, the US gets the top students from the world! That smart TA from X European country helping American undergrads on that problem set? He's not helping undergrads from his country. He's not publishing papers that would boost his country's schools either. One might ask if the lab he works at would even exist without foreign grad students! Would there be enough native applicants to staff it? Graduate school isn't a zero sum game. It's an ecosystem and ecosystems have a huge network effect.